Neil - Monkey Dancing Hoop Jumper

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Originally intended to be only a test of sound equipment, my friend Neil got a jumpstart on the podcast by turning the tables and interviewing me. There will be a follow-up interview with Neil where I return the favor but I wanted to share this conversation with you as we discuss what it means to be vulnerable and the risk of belonging vs. the reward of being true to yourself. 

Other topics include: the origins of this podcast, tattoos, culture and community, pandemic, swearing, learning about privilege, and the challenge of changing, learning, and being a better person.

CW - Foul Language

Transcript

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Brian [00:00:00] Nice. We are live in three, two, one. 

Neil [00:00:08] Okay. That'll help. That's exciting. Okay, dude. What's the name of your podcast? 

Brian [00:00:15] Strangers You Know. 

Neil [00:00:16] Why? 

Brian [00:00:18] Well, you know, you pass a lot of people on the street. And some of them you don't pay any attention to. And some of them have fantastic stories and they're all strangers. And I was thinking, what keeps someone from being a stranger? How do you turn a stranger into an acquaintance or even an acquaintance into a friend? And in my answer, it's a conversation. Might be a series of conversations or may be one killer conversation. 

Neil [00:00:43] What do you want to get out of it? What's the… what's the main focus? 

Brian [00:00:46] For me, it's getting to know another person and being able to share that. I mean, the last five years have been really rough for me and I've gone through a lot of transitions and been dealing with a lot of crap. I've had some great conversations with friends over lunches. Some of the lunches go 4, 5, 6 hours, and that's been the only reason the last five or six years I've made it through, I think. 

Neil [00:01:10] So that's the thing that you do. You literally do call people up and you're like, “Let's go have a talk.” 

Brian [00:01:15] Yeah. 

Neil [00:01:16] Really? 

Brian [00:01:17] Yeah. And sometimes we have 45 minutes for lunch and I'm like, ughh, so unsatisfying. Others, like I said, they go on and on and I love when you just have enough time and I love one on one. Because, you know, it's just hard to keep a conversation going with three people. 

Neil [00:01:32] Yeah, right? That makes sense. So just if I'm getting this right, you're going to bring people on the show. You're just going to sit and talk to them. And hopefully the magic happens. 

Brian [00:01:46] Yeah, I think the trick is getting the right people. I mean, I think a lot of people can carry on a conversation, but some people are better than others. They're more dynamic. They either have a very interesting story that's…  for me, it's interesting. It's completely different from mine. They're open minded. And I've had some great discussions with some friends over the past few years that I didn't know that they were that open. And some of them are very vulnerable. And it just shocked me what they're willing to talk about. And it's just the two of us, right? Turning that into a podcast, are we going to lose some of that? I hope not. I hope we can take what we're getting out of the lunches, what I'm getting out of the lunches. And converting that into a, “This is an amazing human being.” You passed them on the street yesterday. You didn't know it. You passed a lot of people on the street yesterday. And they could probably all tell you something about like this that they've been going through. 

Neil [00:02:39] Especially over the last two years.

Brian [00:02:40] Especially over the past few years. 

Neil [00:02:42] We’ve all lost a little bit of that eyeball-to-eyeball thing. 

Brian [00:02:45] Oh, nothing like isolation that makes you want to just get out and talk to people again, right? 

Neil [00:02:49] Yeah. And to watch somebody do it, that's particularly interesting to me. 

Brian [00:02:54] I think part of it for me is with all of the changes that I've been going through, being open minded to realize, okay, you don't have all the truth, you don't have all the answers. There is no black and white. There is what's right for you and what's right for somebody else. And I used to think, well, that kind of sucks to be them. I used to be almost that narrow minded. And now, the more people that I run into and the more we talk about things that I would have never considered before, I'm like, that's an interesting perspective. Probably not for me, but for that person it seems to be working. I love how… how they see the world. 

Neil [00:03:33] It's going to require a lot of honesty. 

Brian [00:03:35] Yeah. Vulnerability and being… being bold, being brave. Vulnerability is being brave. And you're spilling your guts out there. And it's easier to do at a lunch. But now when we've got, like, I mean, three or four viewers at home. 

Neil [00:03:52] Like five. 

Brian [00:03:52] Right? Five of viewers. Handfuls of viewers. 

Neil [00:03:57] That honesty, I think, is going to have a hard time coming across. How do you plan on getting that honest with somebody? Is it even possible? Maybe it's like… feels like there's a new capital in the world. That vulnerability and honesty is the new…. what is it? The new voyeurism… the new… it used to be that you could just go in like point a camera. The YouTube things, they just point a camera at people from around the day. And that was enough. And nowadays that they want to hear what you think. 

Brian [00:04:32] You want to crawl up and…

Neil [00:04:34] Yeah. What do you know? What do you think? What makes you tick? 

Brian [00:04:37] And some of the realizations are realizations that they haven't had yet, that they're just coming to you through this conversation because they haven't asked themselves the question that you just asked them and to be willing to say, “Oh, yeah, what was that like? Why was that different? How do I consider that? Why is that different from something else?” That's… that's hard. Part of it is just conversation with people. Again, you get the right people and you give them enough conversation. And hopefully while we're sitting here talking, they forget that there's a camera over here that we're talking and microphone is here, right? And you just have that conversation. 

Neil [00:05:12] Who do you hope to talk to? 

Brian [00:05:14] I want to talk to everybody. And that's one of the things that I set up that I love the most about this. Like I told you, when I first made this list, I had 75 people. 

Neil [00:05:20] Yeah. 

Brian [00:05:20] And I mean, they came to me like 10 minutes. And I'm like, oh, my top ten, my top five. And I talked to all five of them. They loved it. Now, part of that is saying, the people that I interview, I want to say, who's the next person I should talk to? Let them come up with that person. They've been through this process like, you know, you don't know this guy. He's a stranger to you, right? But he'd be a great or she would be a great person or they would be a great person to sit down and have a conversation with. Because they have an awesome story and they're open. They'll be vulnerable with you. They told their story a thousand times. 

Neil [00:05:52] What do you think some of the stories are that you're going to run into that you hope to tell? 

Brian [00:05:57] Oh, man. There are some deep, deep pain bodies. 

Neil [00:06:00] Because you've been doing this for a while now. Like this is just lunch. So, what are you hearing at lunch that made you think, like, you know what? This needs to be a podcast. 

Brian [00:06:09] You know, a lot of it is just going through people that I know they've been going through a tough time. 

Neil [00:06:13] What's a tough time like? Is it just…? 

Brian [00:06:15] One of my hockey players… No, well, there's that on top of everything else, there's family issues, there's LGBTQ, there's more self-awareness. There's a lot of deconstruction. There's a lot of religious trauma, there's a lot of old trauma. There is a lot of coming to terms with somebody else's trauma. But one of my hockey players, he has been going to school, he's been going to college, he is going to go into finance. He's a semester or two from finishing. He doesn't want to go into finance. 

Neil [00:06:45] Oh, no. 

Brian [00:06:45] And his parents, especially his dad, is not okay with that. He wants to teach. And it's just killing him. What do you do, right? And he's been very open and honest about how much this is…how much stress this has caused him and everything he's considering. He doesn't want to disappoint his dad, but he also doesn't want to go into finance. 

Neil [00:07:10] Wow. That would be an interesting conversation. That'd be the one I'd want to hear. 

Brian [00:07:14] Yeah, there are a lot of them like that.

Neil [00:07:16] That's what's fascinating to me when you were telling me about this podcast. Like, it's fascinating not necessarily to hear the stories. I love the stories. I'm going to love the stories. I've loved the ones that you've told me. But the thought process behind the story. That's what I want to know. Like, those are the secrets in life, really. What's your thought process? Like you want to… for example, you're going in to finance and now all of a sudden, you're going to go and be a teacher maybe? What's the thought process behind making those decisions? 

Brian [00:07:47] How did you know, one, you hated finance and that that wasn't for you? How did you know, two, that you liked teaching? And three, what are you doing about it to sway it one way or the other? You quit school. Okay, that says something about you. It says something about you to you. It says something about you to your parents. It says something about you to the people at school. It says something about you to your friends that are all graduated. It says something about you to your friends that never went to college. What does it say to you? 

Neil [00:08:14] To me sitting here listening to it says something about me. 

Brian [00:08:17] Yeah, exactly. 

Neil [00:08:18] And that's the point, right?

Brian [00:08:19] To the listeners. Exactly. I've been through that. It wasn't finance, but it was something else. And I've been through those moments like I don't want to move forward with this. Now, a lot of the topics that I mentioned earlier, what do you do when you've been doing that for 50 years and you realize, that wasn't me?

Neil [00:08:39] A lot of us are going through that. Like all of us are doing that. I'm 52. And I'm going through a thing that's like everything I built my life on right now, I want to change it. That's why I want to listen to your show. I want to see what thought processes… processes people are going through? What's normal? Not that it matters, but it does to me. Am I normal? I don't know if I'm normal or not. What would a normal guy think? And I don't want to be like them. I really don't. I don't… I don't care. What I want, though, is if this isn't normal, how do I go against normal as much as how to go towards normal? Like I want to see it. I love the thought. These are the conversations that aren't going that aren't happening. 

Brian [00:09:21] So, let me ask you a question. You got your tattoos. 

Neil [00:09:24] Yeah. 

Brian [00:09:24] When did you get your first tattoo? 

Neil [00:09:25] 30. 

Brian [00:09:26] 30. What did you think about tattoos when you were in 20? 

Neil [00:09:31] They were of the devil. When I got it at 30, they were of the devil. There was just this… this rebellious streak in me that was like, I'm getting one of these goddamn things. And the thing is, I put it on my back. So that nobody sees it. It wasn't like anybody… if I didn't want this shown, it wasn't coming out. 

Brian [00:09:47] It’s your little secret. 

Neil [00:09:47] Yeah. Yeah. And so, I'm kind of walking around with my little middle finger out to the world, but… 

Brian [00:09:52] It's in your pocket. 

Neil [00:09:55] That's a perfect way to put it. Yeah. So, I was 30 when I got that. I didn't get another one until I was 48 or 49. 

Brian [00:10:01] Okay. So a couple of years after that. Good decision? Bad decision? Are you easing into it? Are you more concerned that it's there? Or are you thinking that was a stupid thing? 

Neil [00:10:11] Yeah, you're a good interviewer. I was mortified about it. I wore a tank one day in the gym. I work in a gym. I wore a tank in the gym one time and when my client saw it and it took me to the side and he was like, “Hey, I didn't know you had a tattoo.” To that minute, and that was several years after I got it. To that minute, I had no clue that this could affect anybody but me. And the guys like, “You got a tattoo right there.” And he's a super LDS type in a super LDS town. And this was a little bit saying something about him… 

Brian [00:10:45] Right.

Neil [00:10:46] … that he trains with me. And he wasn't cool with it. And all of a sudden, he's like… he gets all quiet, doesn't say a thing. Within a week or two, him and his wife had canceled their training. And I've been training him for maybe three years at that point. 

Brian [00:11:00] Because you've got the devil's mark on you now.

Neil [00:11:02] Well, I just don't get it. And this is back in the nineties. Late… late nineties, maybe early thousands. And the guy was like, “Yeah, this just isn't okay with me. Sorry.” 

Brian [00:11:13] Okay. So your response to them when he when they left, what was your… what was your first thought? 

Neil [00:11:17] My stomach got nervous. I felt ashamed. I was mortified that I had it. I considered getting it removed. And then the little… the little rebel guy that got it in the first place was like, no, fuck that. It is okay. But even though he was acting like that, the rebel guy, I covered him up. I don't think anybody saw it again until the next time I went swimming.

Brian [00:11:44] Wow. Wow. So now that guy is still in the gym, sees your tattoo for the first time. You're not hiding it very well. Your hands come out of your pocket now. You're… 

Neil [00:11:51] That's why I have… That's where I put them, where I haven’t. 

Brian [00:11:53] Now somebody says something and they say, “Oh, I don't know. I think I need to cancel my membership.”

Neil [00:11:56] I use it… I use it as… I learn something from that moment. And then the next tattoos, I got to put them out down on my forearm. I want that to be one of those things that's like, I don't want you for a minute to think I'm somebody other than who I am. And if you think somehow that my Chevy… Chevrolet, apple pie eaten look that I've got going on right now, if you think that's anything other than who I am, I'm going to alert you to the fact. And then you'll still eventually see. 

Brian [00:12:27] Tell us what you got. Show us what you got. You don't need to take off your shirt because, you know, there's a sign on the wall that says, “Keep your shirt… put your shirt on.” 

Neil [00:12:32] Yeah, put your shirt on unless you're Matthew McConaughey. And even then, you're a little douchey. Yeah. So, this is kind of a familial tattoo. I've got my favorite, I guess it's a scripture, but I look at more as more of as a teaching. This is a compass and it has to do with the widow's mind. Just do your best, you know, give your all. And if you give your all, that's enough. So, I've got that. It's on an arrow, meaning pointing forward. The tip of the arrow has three points, which is my family of three kids. The diamond down here is also… it has for tips that represents Lindsay's kids. And then Lindsay and I are here in the middle and the whole thing is just a big arrow. Looks like a big… big old mess on my arms. And then down here, I got these coordinates where… where I met my wife and…. yeah, so it looks like a big old mess, but… 

Brian [00:13:24] No, I think it's nice. It's great.

Neil [00:13:25] I like that. I put it there and I'm more proud of this probably than any other thing in my life, because I remember the shame that I felt and the remorse I felt and, you know, the judgment that I felt. And now, I'm wearing it pretty loud. There's not much more I can do to be like, “Look, that's who I am.”

Brian [00:13:43] I… I've only known you for… what? Three or four years now? Something like that. I haven't known you to be… I can't say you're not quiet. Because you do… you are pretty quiet. But when it comes to an opinion or discussion with someone that matters, quiet as the last thing that you are. Tell me about the time. So, you had a tattoo and somebody saw it, and it was the worst thing that's ever happened to you. They saw the tattoo, and it was embarrassing. You tried to hide it, and it went away. It turned into “Fuck you.” Now you're thinking, I wear it as a… as a source of pride. Doesn't matter what you think. 

Neil [00:14:20] It’s my people filter. 

Brian [00:14:21] How did you get… okay, how did you get the transition? What would you say to that person that was saying, “Fuck you every time you mention my tattoo”? That's an angry person. 

Neil [00:14:27] I went back. I went back and I looked at the people I was surrounding myself with. And I became dissatisfied with it at some point my life. And this has only happened really in the last several years, and I think COVID brought this out. But at some point… yeah, because I had this feeling that life is super short. Like there was an end now. And I'm in my fifties, or I just turned 50 that year and I'm looking out. And up until then you're just like, I got lots of years left. And then this global pandemic, I don't know if you remember, but when the… when the pandemic hit, we were all supposed to die. Do you remember the early numbers on that? 

Brian [00:15:00] I was in Toronto when they were thinking of shutting down the airports. 

Neil [00:15:03] Yeah. 

Brian [00:15:04] And Toronto, Canada was one of the first one to say, “We're going to shut down the airports.” We were in Toronto. And I'm thinking, how do we get home? 

Neil [00:15:11] Yeah. Yeah. And we were all going to die. And then I started looking around and I became dissatisfied with my life on a level. Up to that point, I had never been. And I think a lot of us are going through that. I think there's the age for that. But I think that that pandemic showed us that, you know, this life is finite. So here I am looking at my life going, this life is now finite. And I don't really like the people I've surrounded myself with. Like I have… I have put them there in order of importance maybe, in order of usefulness, in order of entertainment value. Whatever the hell I was doing, I don't really know, because all of a sudden, I looked up and I'm looking around and there's not a lot of depth in the in the field, you know, as a rugby coach or as a soccer coach or… yeah, I mean... 

Brian [00:15:56] We do live in Utah, so that's going to be significantly limiting right there in the South. And we live in Utah and we live in Davis County. So, you're losing a lot of options. 

Neil [00:16:08] I discovered at that moment I was playing a game that I didn't want to play. And so…

Brian [00:16:14] Namely? 

Neil [00:16:15] Namely, I was playing... I was playing ‘Look like you're a Mormon kid.’ 

Brian [00:16:22] Okay. 

Neil [00:16:22] Right. Look like you are part of the club. Look. At least look. And then you… you don't swear… never swear out loud in front of people. Because if you go ahead and say cuss, then that labels you as a person and then you're going to lose these friends. And anyway, I'm looking at all this, I'm going, I don't like that anymore. I don't want to be that anymore. And so, I started making changes to the roster. I wanted to be surrounded by the people I like. And this is one of my best people filters. 

Brian [00:16:50] So, this attracts new people? And repels other people? 

Neil [00:16:54] It attracts better types of people, I would say. And maybe it's not that. Maybe it was the… the shift, the focus shift.

Brian [00:17:02] Okay. 

Neil [00:17:03] All of a sudden, I am no longer putting off a vibe that I want to fit in. And I just want to be myself. 

Brian [00:17:12] So, you said better type of people. 

Neil [00:17:13] For me.

Brian [00:17:14] You're younger. What's a better type of person when you were 18, 19, 20? 

Neil [00:17:18] Everybody that was playing the game. When I was coming up, 18, 1920, there was a game that had to be played. 

Brian [00:17:25] White shirts, ties? 

Neil [00:17:26] White shirts, ties on. Yeah. Doesn't swear, doesn't smoke. 

Brian [00:17:30] No alcohol. 

Neil [00:17:32] Like there's a… there's a path you have to take otherwise you're... 

Brian [00:17:36] So, it's something that somebody is doing outwardly. 

Neil [00:17:39] Feels like it. Might just be my perception of that. 

Brian [00:17:41] Right. Because you don't know who they are on the inside, right? I mean, you didn't know most of those people. You knew who they were presenting themselves to be the same way you were trying to present yourself to be… to be part of that flock. 

Neil [00:17:50] Right. And I had been rejected enough by, you know, potential suitors or, you know, potential dates or wives or whatever. I'd been rejected by them. I'd been rejected by my own grandparents. There were people that were like… depending on the behaviors that I displayed outwardly, I would be judged for them. 

Brian [00:18:08] So that… that happened later when you decided, look, I'm not just going to play this game. I don't want to wear a tie. I'm not going to wear a tie. 

Neil [00:18:13] No, I wouldn't say that. Like I would say... 

Brian [00:18:16] So how did you lose your grandparents, though? How did you lose people like your grandparents and stuff? 

Neil [00:18:20] Well, in my first marriage, I didn't get married in the temple and they wouldn't come. They were like, “I'm sorry, when you do it right, will attend. You have to protest this. This isn't okay that you didn't do this.” And so, since you didn't get married in this way, we don't support it. And they went to Hawaii instead.

Brian [00:18:43] Wow. Okay. Okay. So when you first heard that, if you can remember, what… what were your feelings like? 

Neil [00:18:51] Like, I know you. I love you. Unbelievable that for this set of values, you leave me. It's me. We work together side by side, have all our lives like... Unbelievable. All of a sudden, I'm a different guy to you because I'm displaying a different set of standards. I'm still this guy, like… ouch. 

Brian [00:19:11] See, that's what gets me. And I've had this conversation with a couple of people during lunches. You know them. But here's the part that kills me. They know you, right? They knew who you were. 

Neil [00:19:23] Right. 

Brian [00:19:24] And now, because you're doing something just a little bit off of where their arrow points, you have no relationship with him. 

Neil [00:19:33] That's what it was. 

Brian [00:19:34 I don't even want to know you anymore. I don't even… never knew who you were. 

Neil [00:19:38] To this point in your life. This is the most significant thing that has ever happened to you, getting married, and we don't want any part of it. In fact, we reject you and won't be a part of it. 

Brian [00:19:49] Well, that's… that's… I don't fathom that. However, I've been on that side. 

Neil [00:19:56] The side where you were doing the judging? 

Brian [00:19:58] Yeah. I haven't, like, missed somebody's temple, but I would be in the church for a long time. And for the past… I don't know. Before I decided to change my mind and saw things a little differently, there was a past, like ten years, where I was in it all the way. I mean, I was doubling down on it in my later years and I didn't. I've seen the t-shirt and it's kind of funny. It says, ‘I apologize for all the things I said when I was Mormon.’ I was never really that person. I wasn't really vocal about it or whatever, but I'd see someone with a tattoo and thought, hmm. I don't know that person. I don't know that person at all. And it took me a long time to realize I see people without a tattoo, I don't know those people either. 

Neil [00:20:39] That's the point. 

Brian [00:20:40] You never know those people, right? So your point of your grandparents knowing who you are and you knowing who they are and just for something as simple as that, or maybe it's not simple, maybe it is the… the brass ring for them that is the… maybe that is the most… the only important thing. For them to cut that off for that reason alone, it kills me and makes me think of another interview, another lunch that I had with a really good friend of mine who has been responsible for a lot of these interviews and for me thinking of this podcast. He didn't know who he was. He came to a realization that he wasn't who he thought he was. And he came to that realization early twenties. And then within a couple of years, he realized that's not even right and changed it again. Completely changed. Went from very, uh… very devout LDS church member to queer to transgender. And I've had these conversations. What's it like to not know yourself? And to realize you've been fighting you for a long time without even realizing. And that just… that kills me.

Neil [00:22:07] Yeah, mine was the opposite way. Mine was, I thought I knew exactly who the hell I was. And all of a sudden, I started getting rejection from the people I loved the most or thought the most well of. And I was this… all of a sudden, I was like, oh, my God. I am not the right person. So, that turned me into this other person that I'm not. And that lasted… that person lasted for 25 years. 

Brian [00:22:33] So that was the ‘You hate me. I hate you back?’

Neil [00:22:37] No. That was the ‘You hate me. So, I'm going to make you love me. I'm going to dance hard.’ Oh, my God. I’ll dance and I will do all of it. All of the things. 

Brian [00:22:46] I've been a bad kid. 

Neil [00:22:48] I can do better. Watch me. So now that I know this is the rule, watch me. 

Brian [00:22:53] That's where love ends. I'll meet you there. Yeah, I'll catch up. 

Neil [00:22:57] Turns out I thought love is this thing. You know, I thought we were seeing eye to eye all of our lives. 

Brian [00:23:01] You thought it had something what you felt? 

Neil [00:23:03] I thought it had something to do with just how both of us… how I felt like the situation was. So, Grandpa, I thought you and I were solid. I did. We had had some great talks. We… we had worked together side by side for years and years in northern Utah farmer, rancher stock. And you were the one that did this and you were the one that did this. And we had some really sweet moments. And I really, really believed we had a connection right up until you said we don't anymore. 

Brian [00:23:30] Yeah, and it wasn't a warning. No warning shots or anything. 

Neil [00:23:32] I had no clue. I was like, oh, my God, I'm flying along. This is a great life. Look at us go. Look at us. I'm so happy. He seemed so happy. And then it was, ‘By the way, you're a bad person and I won't associate with you on that level.’ You're still my grandson. So we're going to, you know, we'll see… yeah, Christmas is fine, too, but we... 

Brian [00:23:52] Need you to take the hay off the field. 

Neil [00:23:53] We have to know that, you know, I stand in judgment over you for these things that you've done and that makes you less of a person. And until you're this person, you can't be a good person like you were one minute ago. One minute ago, you were this person, and now you're not. And for you to be that person again, you're going have to jump through these hoops. So, I became a monkey dance and hoop jumper. I was the man. I tried hard. I really doubled and tripled down on that and I was miserable. 

Brian [00:24:20] So we can have this conversation. I haven't known you as long as your grandfather knew you at the time. We've known each other fairly well, a little bit. We're getting a little bit closer. We can talk about this. Why could you never have this conversation with your grandfather? 

Neil [00:24:35] He wasn't open to it. No. None of them are. My parents aren't open to it. Nobody's open to this. If you don't run lockstep… in my experience in in just in my life, if you don't run lockstep with this set of values, your opinions don't matter because you're wrong. It's not wrong. You're wrong. 

Brian [00:24:57] Yeah. Because I know the way, the truth and the light. 

Neil [00:25:00] Yeah. 

Brian [00:25:01] And this is the way it is. You got off the path. 

Neil [00:25:03] Yeah. It's not my fault that you did this. Right. So, get back on the path and then you'll matter. Then your opinions will matter. The things that you think and hope and pray for will matter. Everything else is less then, and I'm not even open to the conversation until you come up to speed. 

Brian [00:25:20] Okay. So that in mind, your previous self, looking back, who do you owe an apology to for being on that same path? 

Neil [00:25:30] Yeah, I owe an apology to myself, right? 

Brian [00:25:32] Okay. 

Neil [00:25:33] Like I went off the path. I went off the… the real path, the Neil path and the path that would have made a difference. 

Brian [00:25:39] Okay. But as far as being narrow minded and unapproachable and not willing to listen to someone else's perspective… 

Neil [00:25:45] Yeah, that’s mindless, just like you said, I won’t wear the t-shirt. 

Brian [00:25:48] Give me an example if you can think of someone. A lot of times we have a hard time. I have a hard time. I have a hard time with this question. 

Neil [00:25:57] Yeah. 

Brian [00:25:58] How do you picture yourself? You're a bad guy in someone else's story. You are the bad guy. 

Neil [00:26:03] Oh, my God. Right. 

Brian [00:26:04] Whose story is that? How are you the bad guy? And so, I'm writing this book about this bishop that comes to an awareness. And part of his path is he's like, this is wrong for people to do that to their grandchild or for whatever these examples are. Most of my lunch discussions come down. That's just wrong to treat someone that way. 

Neil [00:26:26] Right. 

Brian [00:26:27] Here's the killer as he thinks. I've been that way for a long time. How many people have I been that person to? And that just broke his heart. 

Neil [00:26:42] Yeah. I don't know if it ever broke my heart. I can tell you…

Brian [00:26:46] Yeah, and I think that's the answer. I think that's why it's such a hard question for me, too. I didn't know that I was…. you'd have to really look back. And we don't want to see ourselves as a bad guy. We want to see ourselves as the bad ass, but we don't want to see ourselves as a bad guy in someone else's story, right? And so, I think we kind of gloss over that you had your reasons and they just didn't understand you and. I have a hard time with that question. I try to look back on that. And I have... well, I struggle. 

Neil [00:27:11] You blindsided me with that question. 

Brian [00:27:14] Yeah. Take a second. Think about it. 

Neil [00:27:15] Well, no. The thing is… is just in you sitting here talking to it to… to me, I'm going over this situation and that situation and… and I'm just flushing. My cheeks are flushing over it. Like I'm... I'm embarrassed about it. I can't believe it. I remember I was talking to a brother one time. And the brother was like going through some real rough shit, and he was kind of going what the Mormons would call completely off the path. And so, he was going through some really, really, really rough shit. And instead of me kind of being like, “Dude, I got you, you're going to be fine”, I said something like, “Well, you know where true happiness is, right? Get back harder on the path.” And he didn't need to hear that, because in that moment, what I did is judged him, and all he wanted to do is get away from the judgment. Like he just wanted out, and he needed a guy. And he and I were close. But in that moment, I became grandpa to him where I told him that you are only worthy when you do this. And what he needed. And what I actually felt about him was, “Dude, we all make mistakes. Don't worry about this. Don't sweat it.” I'm embarrassed that I didn't go down that road on fucking believable. That had such a dramatic impact on me when I when it was done to me years later, I'm spewing that at him. And to this day, I've never told him that I was sorry about that. I need to. 

Brian [00:28:43] Yeah, it's great. And I'm thinking at this point in my life, am I going to have more experiences in my life like that? We're going to keep a score. Am I going to have more experiences where I've told them, “You just need to get back on the path”? Or am I going to have more experiences like, “I can't believe you just said that to me.” And at my point in my whole…

Neil [00:29:00] We would hope.

Brian [00:29:01] Oh, obviously. I mean, that's obvious. I would hope that I would be more aware and more forgiving and more understanding. I'm 54. I've spent more time in the church than I will ever spend out of the church. And it hurts me to think had I been in bishoprics. And bishops are great. I'm not trying to knock on the church or anybody. When I was there, I was trying to do the right thing and I give them the benefit that they're trying to do the right thing, too. But I know now or I feel now that I wasn't. And when someone really needed my help, I pull out my scriptures or the manual and shove it down their throat and say, “You just need to get back on the path.” 

Neil [00:29:47] What the fuck is up with that? That is such a demeaning, controlling way to be. It is. I'm… I'm embarrassed that I've done it. Unbelievable. And I know that that's what we were taught. And I have… I have sympathy and empathy for that. I get it. This is what the answer was when I did it wrong. So, that must be the answer. So, I'm just going to quote that. But there is some dissonance in that because you know deep in your heart, look, this didn't work for me and it was horseshit when I heard it. And I don't see how that's the answer to anything right now. All I need is a hug. You know, like, all I need is somebody on my side. 

Brian [00:30:22] And I think sometimes that awareness doesn't come until after the fact, until you've had it done to you and you're realizing that doesn't help matters. If I tell him, “Have you been reading your scriptures? That's why your life is so tough right now. Have you read your scriptures?” Until you've had someone say that to you, you don't realize that's not helpful. 

Neil [00:30:44] Well, let me see if I got this straight. So I'm having a really tough time. I've crushed people. It hurts my… my heart. And you're just about to tell me that I also crushed Jesus? Like that's helpful? By the way, did you remember that you hurt the Lord and the gifts in the Garden of Gethsemane? You added to his pain? Like this is not helpful to me. I do not need that. This is the last thing I needed. And really, honestly, fuck you. Ouch. That hurt a lot. 

Brian [00:31:09] And until you've been there, sometimes I don't think you can see it because you really are trying to help. You've been trained to help. The scriptures are the answer. There is one true path. We know the way the one true church. And man, that's so nice to know all that with a certainty and to be able to get up and say, “I know whatever you're going to say.” And until that's happened to you and you're like, I think that might be a way or that might be a way, or I don't think that's a good way at all. That's certainly the worst thing you could possibly do here. 

Neil [00:31:40] Yeah, it certainly was the worst thing that's ever happened to me and that I've ever done to others. When you have… it's weird because when you have personal arguments with other people, the last thing you should do is try to take the moral high ground and show them all… pile on to them all the bad shit they've done. Like stay within the argument or whatever you're talking about right now. Try to find common goals and get out of them, right? But to make the common goal, this thing that you aren't really on board with, that's rough. That's rough. And I struggle with that. 

Brian [00:32:10] I struggle with that too. And I don't know exactly whether it's my change or my age or wisdom or whatever you want to call it or COVID. It could be a lot of different things. But I look at it and say… my… my wife said once it is a huge blessing to have been so phenomenally wrong about something you've been so certain of your entire life. Because as painful as that is, it makes you question everything with an open mind. 

Neil [00:32:38] Yeah, Gabby. So smart. 

Brian [00:32:39] You come up with something different. I'm like, “How do you know that's not the right way?” Well, they don't… it doesn't look like it's working for him. It’s like… and everything that you've done worked out for you when you struggled? Is it because you were doing it wrong? Or is it just because you were on hard times? “No, no. I can… I can definitely see that. Maybe it's just bad timing. Maybe it was something else because…” 

You don't know. 

Neil [00:32:58] Yeah. 

Brian [00:32:59] And so, that's opened my mind more so than anything. Let me… let me ask you one quick question. You hear this phrase. What do you think? ‘Old white male’. 

Neil [00:33:12] So, I'm confused. 

Brian [00:33:14] Okay. 

Neil [00:33:15] Because I know what it's supposed to mean. 

Brian [00:33:16] Okay. 

Neil [00:33:18] I don't know that… that what it supposed to mean, accurately reflects either you or I, but I know what my role is supposed to be. 

Brian [00:33:27] Okay. But can I make this even worse? 

Neil [00:33:31] Yeah. Go.

Brian [00:33:31] For… for both of us. Old white male with a fucking microphone. Come on. What are we doing?

Neil [00:33:39] Does the world really need another old white male with a fucking microphone? Is that really the solution? I know. I get it. 

Brian [00:33:47] Right?

Neil [00:33:48] Yeah. Yeah. Is this what does the world really just need? Another old white male voice? 

Brian [00:33:54] I don't know. What do you do with it? 

Neil [00:33:57] I think you just do. I think it doesn't matter. I think… I think at some point you have to just do it. Yeah, I get it. I'm coming from a really huge place of privilege and power. I get it, right? I get it. I do know. Does that mean I should shut the fuck up, sit back and not say anything? I don't know that helps heal the world. I don't know that helps anybody. I think that the last thing anybody in the world should be is silenced. So, you know, I do get that maybe you and I'd be at the top of the list of people to silence, but I don't think that means we get silenced. 

Brian [00:34:33] I think… along those same lines, I think old white male doesn't mean you're silenced. But how about you listen? And I've learned a lot from listening. And I think that's a big thing. I mean, I can't… I can't help it. I'm old, I'm white, and I'm a male. The only time that's going to change is when I'm a dead white male. That's… that's the only thing that's going to change. 

Neil [00:34:55] Yeah. 

Brian [00:34:55] And in the meantime, yeah, I get… I've been… have as many people sit in that chair as they can and I don't… I'm going to try really hard not to have many old white males. 

Neil [00:35:06] Oh, I hope you do. I hope you do. Old white male. I hope you get in front of your six two transvestite that you're telling me about. 

Brian [00:35:15] You. Oh, I'm going to ask them that. Oh, I will. I totally will. 

Neil [00:35:18] I hope he's the type of person that can go right at your eyeballs and be like, “Listen.”

Brian [00:35:22] Yeah. And I'm here to listen. I'm here to learn. Because I have learned I'm not right about everything. And I've been so phenomenally wrong about something that was so important in my life that I've got no legs to stand on right now. 

Neil [00:35:34] I hope you fuck it up so often, because I will learn from your fuck ups more than I will learn from your victories. 

Brian [00:35:39] Your prayers will be answered. 

Neil [00:35:40] It's just… I do. I hope you just stick your foot in your mouth like all of us will. Especially the old white males. Especially us. Maybe that makes this even a better one. And be open to it.

Brian [00:35:52] And I’m okay with people giving me zero tolerance for that. I'm okay with, call me out on it every time. I am okay with it. It's going to hurt. I'm not going to like it. I'm probably going to be a little pissed at first. 

Neil [00:36:01] I know. 

Brian [00:36:01] But we've got… haven't had so much leeway for so long. It's like, no, you need to slap me in the side of the head every single time. 

Neil [00:36:08] I've got a friend that's also female to male transvestite. And I sit with him and we're different. I love him to death. I truly do. And I find myself sneaking into these misogynistic conversations that only you and I would have, meaning old white males would have. Because they're some real kick… kick back from the eighties that you and I are still dealing with. Real, like sexism, misogynistic, homophobic. All of it, right? And I sit there and I do this misogynistic talk with him that was supposed to be between the boys. I forget that for 30 years he was a female. And he's looking at me like, hey, fucker, this is not cool. And I'm like, wow, that hurts. I really need to reexamine my position on things. I really need to watch my mouth. So I'm… are you honest enough or are you going to argue? I can't wait to see how this goes. 

Brian [00:37:04] I can't either. This has been fantastic. I mean, for a little test, this little sound check. 

Neil [00:37:10] That's why I think that you're going to be so good at this. Like you are a great conversationalist. 

Brian [00:37:14] I don't know about that. I think I just have amazing people on and they've got great stories. 

Neil [00:37:19] I love your thoughts on how you're going to get more people too. That was perfect. Because you can't know all those people.

Brian [00:37:23] No. And I'm going to run in the same circles and I'm working really hard right now to expand that circle beyond Utah, beyond talking about faith transitions, beyond talking about the LDS Church. Yeah, a lot of the people we're going to talk with, that's going to be some early topics. It's sensitive. I know a lot of people that are that are afflicted with that and that have been dealing with it on both sides. I'd love to hear the issues on both sides. 

Neil [00:37:47] Will you talk equally on both sides? Can you go to an active LDS member and give them space? 

Brian [00:37:56] Absolutely. Well, I mean, I think that's the easiest thing for me to do because I've been there and I know what they're thinking. They don't know what I'm thinking. They're not seeing things the way that I'm saying because they haven't had that opportunity yet. But I've been there. I've been the self-righteous bishopric. “We know the answers. Let me set you straight. This is the right path.” And not long after I thought, oh, I need to call that person and apologize. What can I… what can I do to atone for that? 

Neil [00:38:25] Yeah. 

Brian [00:38:26] For knowing the answer to his problem that I didn't even listen to. 

Neil [00:38:30] You're better than me. I'm not sure... I'm not sure I've got that in me. I think if I get somebody sitting there on the other side of this table, if I had somebody, I'd have to think about it. But if I had somebody that was tripling down on misogyny, like, I don't know. What do you do? Just let it go? Like, how hard can you push back?

Brian [00:38:50] You know, that is going to be tough. That is going to be tough because my son in law says I can tell immediately. Because he loves deep conversations. He does not like, “How’s the weather?”, “What did you do this weekend?” I mean, it just kills him. He does not like social gatherings for that reason. 

Neil [00:39:05] I would like him 

Brian [00:39:07] He just… he wants to start every conversation like, “What do you think of your own death?” 

Neil [00:39:12] What's the worst thing you've ever done? 

Brian [00:39:14] Yeah, exactly. That's where he wants to start. Let's get… it'll get more interesting as we move on, right? But he has a saying that says, “I can tell when we're going to have a good conversation if I can ask… or I can tell we're going to have a short conversation, if I'm going to ask someone, say, ‘Is it possible that you could be wrong?’ And if the answer is no, we're done here.”

Neil [00:39:35] Are we? Now, let me ask you, how do you handle that?

Brian [00:39:36] That's what I'm saying. That's a concern. 

Neil [00:39:39] Are we done? Are you just going to shut it down when it… when the answer becomes, “No, I can't be wrong about the thing”, where do you go? Like, what are you going to say? Are you going to push? Or are you just going to shut them? 

Brian [00:39:49] Like, how do I know? How do I know that they are not right especially with their situation and their upbringing? I mean, a lot of people react the way they do for fear and out of pain bodies. And if it's something near and dear to their heart, you don't know the story that's triggering that. And so, for they may have a different response, I may he vehemently disagree with it. And I may say, “I know the right answer. I know what it's… this is black and white. This is…” And then I hear myself say, shit. I've been here before. I might ask him, “How can you be so certain?” And I may choke back some comments while they're answering it. And I may be thinking, you're never coming back on this show again, but I'm going to hopefully try to listen and say this is a relatively intelligent person. They've had a certain set of life experiences and background and education, and they think this. Okay. That's interesting. And how do I know how I really feel unless I know why they feel what they feel? 

Neil [00:40:54] I can't wait. 

Brian [00:40:55] I can't wait either. I'll probably… I'll call you crying and say, “Hey, we need to go out. We got to do something.” Or I got my ass kicked. 

Neil [00:41:02] I need to see how you handle it. Like I'm telling you right now, I can't wait to see how you handle that. I think that in the world right now, there's a lot of black and white. Lot. 

Brian [00:41:11] Right. Well, and the social media and the news certainly don't help with that. They're pushing everybody on both directions. 

Neil [00:41:15] That's even more well-said, right? Because it's not black and white. It's red and blue. 

Brian [00:41:19] Yeah, exactly. 

Neil [00:41:20] Okay. 

Brian [00:41:20] And there's no purple. 

Neil [00:41:22] No, no, there's not. So I think what the world is missing right now is the purple view, which is the purple view. Because all there is, is blue or red. And you have to be one of those. And if you're not… if you're not one of those, it's not wrong. You're wrong. And shame on you and really just go kill yourself. This is terrible, right? I'm excited to hear you navigate, you know, in a purple world, if you're able to and challenge that you’ll do it. 

Brian [00:41:50] It'll be interesting. And honestly, the people I'm having on board, I don't know if they'll be very purple. I think they'll be red or they'll be blue. But as I mentioned earlier, I've known people that thought their whole life they were red and all of a sudden discovered. Well, I'm thinking my friend who's transitioning. His whole life, he thought he was red. Turns out he's blue. Or he has several people that we… that we know they are purple. And the reds and the blues, they don't understand that at all. 

Neil [00:42:28] And that's a shame because purple wins this. Purple wins when we all figure out how to blend, right? There are songs about this shit, right? And we all figure out how to come together. That's what wins. I think this is the conversation that needs to happen. Yeah, I'm excited to see it navigated. 

Brian [00:42:54] I am so psyched about this. I just did a live… Facebook Live this morning and I couldn't be more excited about it. I've been psyched. I've been telling Gabby. Honestly, this last week has been a little stressful. I am seeing the real Brian for probably the first time in 15 years. I haven't seen me for a long time. 

Neil [00:43:14] What does that mean? 

Brian [00:43:16] I've been depressed, I've been lost, I've been confused, I haven't had energy. I just don't like moving forward. I haven't liked my job. I've done some things that I've enjoyed. But it's been this week getting this excited about this project, about doing this on a regular basis that has just returned a part of me that I'm like, “Hey, Brian. Where the hell have you been?” And Gabby has seen it, and I've seen it, and I've definitely felt it. And I have anxiety with may or... it may fail if I don't… there's a lot to do. That's good anxiety for me. I can handle that. But it's been these conversations that got me through the last five years. There have been times I wasn't sure I was going to make it through those years. And talking with someone and commiserating with the fact that they're struggling with who they are and more importantly who they are not anymore, and how they're dealing with that, it has been lifesaving. 

Neil [00:44:15] Yeah. Stuff like this would be lifesaving. Can't wait to. Congratulations.

Brian [00:44:19] Thank you so much. And we're going to have to do this again when you do your podcast right here at the table. We'll switch chairs. 

Neil [00:44:26] Yeah. Yeah. That will be fun. That will be fun. Congratulations. I wish you all the best. 

Brian [00:44:30] Thanks. 

Neil [00:44:31] I know… I know. This is a voice that the world needs. 

Brian [00:44:37] I hope so. It's what I need to hear. It's not mine. But that… this voice and there are hundreds, thousands of them hopefully. 

Neil [00:44:43] Who you got up first? Do you have any… any previews for me? 

Brian [00:44:46] I do. I have a Broadway performer who is not LDS, but he was in the original cast of ‘The Book of Mormon The Musical’. 

Neil [00:44:56] Oh, wow. 

Brian [00:44:57] And I want to talk with him about, “What do you know about the Mormons?” Because really, he's engaged to an ex-Mormon. So, he's learned a lot about the church. He's from New York. And… but also, I want to get off of the ex-Mormon thing a little bit. I want to open questions to, “Would you ask someone who is performing on Broadway?” 

Neil [00:45:15] Hmm. 

Brian [00:45:15] He's currently in ‘The Tina Turner Musical’. He's one of the main leads. And this isn't his first rodeo. He's been in several. How did he get there? These are questions I'd like to ask. I have my… I've just set an interview today with Santa Claus, a guy that's played Santa Claus for 30 years and has phenomenal stories with that. I have a friend of mine... 

Neil [00:45:39] I’d love to hear that, too. I can't wait to hear that. Why the hell do you put that suit on? Isn't that a little weird? 

Brian [00:45:45] Yeah. That's… it's a little weird. 

Neil [00:45:48] Can you say that to him? Do you think you'd be able to be like, “Look, I'm sorry, but this is weird.” 

Brian [00:45:52] If I remember, he one time slammed me into the corner at a hockey game. So sand is not as nice and clean cut as some people would think. So it's been a while, but… 

Neil [00:46:02] That makes it weirder. 

Brian [00:46:04] Right. Sit on his knee and tell him what you want for Christmas. Oh, no, no. Not going to do it. 

Neil [00:46:12] Yeah. 

Brian [00:46:13] So, yeah. And then who's after that. I probably have about 5 to 10 lined up right now. After that, they're going to kind of help me decide that direction. I have a… someone that I just met that… she is Russian and she is writing a novel and it's a fascinating novel and I want her to talk about that and especially her experiences living in different parts of the world of how those stories come to gel in her mind and where they came from and her philosophy on that. 

Neil [00:46:40] My son and I'd be listening to that. We're both writers like you. So… I love… I love writers. I think it's one of the highest forms of art. I think comedians are only… that are a little higher. But second would be writers. Just having stuff flow out of you, out of your inner soul in ways that are the hardest to communicate. You know, you paint a bright picture and people immediately know this is a happy thing. But human being communication, humans are terrible at this. It's amazing we pull it off, right? It blows me away that we can. And so for somebody to be able to take thoughts that are inside of their head, put them on paper and communicate them to another human well, that's like the highest form, in my opinion. 

Brian [00:47:24] Yeah, it's… it's fascinating. 

Neil [00:47:26] Yeah. So, I'm excited to hear that. 

Brian [00:47:29] Lots of good things come out and I'm excited to hear who you're going to suggest next. 

Neil [00:47:32] Oh, yeah. 

Brian [00:47:33] You need to start thinking about it. 

Neil [00:47:36] Okay. 

Brian [00:47:36] We'll announcing we'll get questions from our listeners and say, “Hey, we've got this person coming up in a week.” 

Neil [00:47:41] Who are the strangers that you knew so people that you know probably don't though? 

Brian [00:47:47] Probably don't. Yeah. And they're strangers to all of our audience, and they'll be stranger to me. I want to hear their story. 

Neil [00:47:56] Mm hmm. Me too. 

Brian [00:47:58] And not just, “Oh, when I was 21, I did...” No, I don't want to hear that story I want to hear what do you think about your own death? 

Neil [00:48:05] Yeah. Yeah, right? What do you think about your own death? 

Brian [00:48:09] Because in the end, what else matters? 

Neil [00:48:10] Who is God? 

Brian [00:48:12] Oh, that's a good one. 

Neil [00:48:14] Like, who is it? That would be interesting to ask everybody. 

Brian [00:48:18] Who? Or what? Or is it? 

Neil [00:48:20] Because I would love… I would love the, “Oh, fuck you. This is stupid. What a dumb thing to talk about. I won't do it.” I would love that as much as, “God looks like this has this face as this shape.” Yes, that would be… both of those would be… is equally fascinating. 

Brian [00:48:34] You just sit there and say, “Yeah, I used to think something like that.” 

Neil [00:48:36] I know. Thank you for sharing that. Like nobody has the guts to talk about this stuff, right? These are the conversations. I was watching… sorry. 

Brian [00:48:44] No, no, no. 

Neil [00:48:45] I was watching a thing this morning on how to wipe your butt. Understand. We…

Brian [00:48:50] You spent way too much time on social media. I just have to say that. 

Neil [00:48:52] We all… for sure. But who knows who's doing it right? I've never had a formal lesson on it. I've never seen a formal lesson on it. And I would guess 100% you and I are doing it differently. And I would guess if you put 100 people in the room, 99 of us are doing it differently. I would... 

Brian [00:49:12] I don't want to know the answer to that question. 

Neil [00:49:14] But the reason I say that is because there's this thing that everybody does that nobody probably does it exactly the same. And some ways are going… like there would be a guy or a girl that's killing it in the go swiping department. She's… she's amazing. And we don't know. Right? We can't know. And I'll tell you, I would love to know. And if you can do that with just human communication, people, if you can find the things in there and I know you can, you're… you're the one. But to bring these things out, all of this stuff that we all do, that we all have our own opinions on a thing, who is God, for example, it's going to be interesting to watch everybody process this. To me. 

Brian [00:49:58] Yeah. You know, as far as I know, the church has… doesn't have an official stance on that particular issue. 

Neil [00:50:09] The butt wiping issue. 

Brian [00:50:12] And all of the workbooks or handbooks or anything else is one of the few things that isn't in there. I mean, your tattoos are definitely in there. 

Neil [00:50:09] And I know some of the stuff they won't let you do. That’s there. 

Brian [00:50:12] But I'm wondering if the Army has addressed that, because the Army does like to break it down. They're like the Knute Rockne of.. of the world. They're like, “Knute Rockne says he does four things.” Their football teams do four things. That's it. And we don't even fancy. I'm wondering if the Army has come up with something. I know they have them for keeping your feet dry. So if anybody has approached it, maybe you. There's your new podcast, there's your new… so, where did you come across this gem of hidden information? 

Neil [00:50:40] Yeah. Where did I? 

Brian [00:50:41] Yeah. 

Neil [00:50:42] TikTok. Of course. 

Brian [00:50:48] Dare I ask what you were searching for? 

Neil [00:50:51] It was just in my feed, so maybe that'll tell you more about it. The algorithm brought it up. So, if that doesn't say more about me than anything. 

Brian [00:50:59] That's pretty vulnerable of you. 

Neil [00:51:03] Well, I didn’t know it was. 

Brian [00:51:04] Like those ‘Who is God’ or ‘What is God’ I regret that. 

Neil [00:51:07] Can we edit?

Brian [00:51:07] Yeah, we can highlight that one. Put that out as a highlight, as a mini clip. 

Neil [00:51:12] See, that's the purpose of a podcast like this. 

Brian [00:51:16] Yeah, I'm loving it. 

Neil [00:51:18] Yeah, I love it. Congrats, man. 

Brian [00:51:20] You're awesome. Thanks. 

Neil [00:51:25] You're doing a good job.