Liz - Thought Loops & Red Flags

Elizabeth Gale grew up in the perfect Scientology family. For many years, she and her brother were the organization's poster children. But as she struggled to remain on the one true path, she started to see several cracks in the teachings and practices, experiencing firsthand what it was doing to her family, their relationships and her overall happiness. These concerns became red flags, which ultimately led her to look for a way out. 

Her journey identifies thought loops, shame and conviction, patterns of abuse, systemic cover ups and down tone emotions. Since speaking out against Scientology, her religion has labeled her as a suppressive person and she has lost family, property, sense of belonging and her identity. Those who have experienced religious deconstruction know that it is painful, pressing, costly. It can also be enlightening and uplifting. 

In my interview with Liz, we talk about basic kindness, anger, sadness and how much her search for a new tribe and sense of belonging given rise to a new person, a brave, vibrant individual with deep personal conviction, broader range of emotions, closer personal ties, and a genuine voice. Also, be sure to visit our website www.StrangersYouKnowPodcast.com connect with Liz on TikTok and Social Media. 

You can also learn more about this episode. Our guest, Elizabeth Gail, including her episode of Leah Remini's Scientology and the aftermath, as well as more information on the novel she is writing. 

Transcript

SYK Episode 120: Liz - Thought Loops & Red Flags

MUSIC

Brian [00:00:04] You mentioned several times in some of your stories that you've become more genuine and more honest. You become your true self. 

Liz [00:00:11] I didn't think about it until I didn't know who I was until I had taken away everything that I wasn't. And then (I was) sounds dramatic, but I was sort of nothing. ThIs probably the hardest and the shittiest time as you down to like the nothing of yourself. Then at some point you'll find one thing that makes you happy, and then you might find two things that make you happy. And then on that, you can build who you want to be. Yahoo who you want to be. What makes you and might be slow and it might be scary. And I feel like a lot of responsibility. But you get to craft from scratch a life and an identity that you want and that you love. Yeah. And a lot of people never get that opportunity, ever. 

MUSIC

Brian [00:00:59] Elizabeth Gail grew up in the perfect Scientology family. For many years, she and her brother were the organization's poster children. But as she struggled to remain on the one true path, she started to see several cracks in the teachings and practices, experiencing firsthand what it was doing to her family, their relationships and her overall happiness. These concerns became red flags, which ultimately led her to look for a way out. 

Her journey identifies thought loops, shame and conviction, patterns of abuse, systemic cover ups and down tone emotions. Since speaking out against Scientology, her religion has labeled her as a suppressive person and she has lost family, property, sense of belonging and her identity. Those who have experienced religious deconstruction know that it is painful, pressing, costly. It can also be enlightening and uplifting. 

In my interview with Liz, we talk about basic kindness, anger, sadness and how much her search for a new tribe and sense of belonging given rise to a new person, a brave, vibrant individual with deep personal conviction, broader range of emotions, closer personal ties, and a genuine voice. Also, be sure to visit our website www.StrangersYouKnowPodcast.com connect with Liz on TikTok and Social Media. 

You can also learn more about this episode. Our guest, Elizabeth Gail, including her episode of Leah Remini's Scientology and the aftermath, as well as more information on the novel she is writing. 

MUSIC

Brian [00:02:15] You are a third generation x scientologist, as you say, on your tik tok and you grew up in the perfect Scientology family, even signed a billion year contract when you were 14. Through all of that, do you think you are consciously aware of what you are committing to? 

Liz [00:02:36] I think anybody can be consciously aware of what a billion years will look like. 

Brian [00:02:40] True enough. 

Liz [00:02:42] But I was really I really believed growing up that Scientology had the answers for every problem. So any time something would happen in my life that I needed help with, whether it was boys or school or anything, it was always funneled back to Scientology. Okay. And so, I don't know, (I'm) I'm flustered, but. Yes. Yeah. Ask me a question again. 

Brian [00:03:09] So I'm just curious to know how much of it you were doing because you were supposed to or your parents said so? Or did you really were you buying into it? Is this like, no, This is the right stuff. Every problem I have, I've just don't know the answer. Cause I'm not looking hard enough. I'm not being diligent. 

Liz [00:03:25] Enough yet for half of my life. I truly believe that if I was better, I did more Scientology. I converted more, I confessed more, I did more of their programing that I would ultimately be happy because everybody else was supposedly happy, which I find out later is not at all the case. Wow. So a lot of me believed it, mostly in times of turmoil because I didn't have a lot of other tools. Scientology was the answer for every single problem. So you didn't look anywhere else at it? No. Anywhere else. So I did believe it in that regard for a long time. 

Brian [00:04:01] Yeah. And so from what little I understand of Scientology, it seems like they take away of your a couple of your other options, like to yourself, listen to your feelings. It seems like feelings is especially a big one. It's like now your feelings are usually going to lead you the wrong direction. You need to focus on the program and you'll figure it out. 

Liz [00:04:19] Yeah, well, the weird thing about Scientology is that there's. There's beliefs about the spirit and all that, and then there's a bunch of policies. So Ron Hubbard, the founder, he wrote all these ways of doing almost everything, like very specific from cleaning your windows to use how to do it on vitamin regimens. He's got things for when women are experiencing like menstrual cramps. He has a set of vitamins. You're supposed to take that. 

Brian [00:04:47] He's an expert on that and everything. 

Liz [00:04:50] And he has a baby formula recipe that is like corn sirup, high fructose corn sirup. And is it barley? Yeah. They still push to this day. And so there's not just the beliefs, but there's like following all these really weird guidelines very specifically written by this guy that are totally out of date, and yet you're sort of doing them and you're wondering why you're doing them and you're doing them because of these beliefs. And eventually that starts to fall apart for any, I don't know, for any person looking for answers a lot of people aren't looking for, there are no questions. I always had questions. I saw a lot of weird stuff growing up and I was just like, Why is it like this? Why are you guys pretending everything's okay when it's clearly not okay? 

Brian [00:05:35] What were some of those ones that caught you earlier on that you're just like. 

Liz [00:05:39] Well, I always thought that my mom worked for H.R., which is Citizen's Commission on Human Rights. So they were very active mental health. Yes. And at one point, I forget when it was the bill came up for having equal access to mental health through insurance companies as physical health. I want to say it was in the nineties, early 2000s. Anyway, they were actively campaigning against this bill, trying to keep mental health services from the average person, like through their insurance. And I just thought, you guys aren't solving shit, you guys haven't fixed anything. And now some other people want to do something and you're like, now you want to shut it down because it's not Scientology. And that's the kind of thinking that it's just a click on all the answers, then frickin do something or get out of the way. 

Brian [00:06:28] But, but I think you kind of alluded to it earlier, and thIs very common with the LDS Church. We do have all of the answers. In our case, they didn't come from L. Ron Hubbard. They came from God and a prophet told you what God was saying and what he. Even when God changes his mind, they'll tell you that thIs what God is thinking. But if it's not working because you're doing it wrong. 

Liz [00:06:52] Oh yeah. 

Brian [00:06:53] Or not praying enough, you're not worthy enough. You're not following what's wrong. Anytime something doesn't work, it's your fault. And when it does work on the few cases, all praise be to God. Not because you are working hard or you are trying to figure it out. No praise goes that way. Blame comes this way. 

Liz [00:07:11] Yes, it's pretty much exactly the same. The blame game is thick and I think there. Earlier that you get into one of these shame based control groups, Scientology, LDS, if they're using those tactics earlier, it is for the child or for me, for example, from before I was even born. It has a deep impact. Those thought loops are really, really tricky in Scientology. The thought loop is if you get sick or injured, you are PTSD. That means that you are getting a harmed, harmful energy from somewhere, but you can't get that harmful energy unless you do have done something wrong. So the first thing you need to do to change somebody else's energy is figure out what you did wrong. This, and if you keep going down, (around and) around in this loop, any single thing, anything that ever happens is essentially, you've done something wrong. You've made that happen. And now that you need to, like, dig deeper to like fix it, but you never get out of that mind trap. And so people who leave Scientology, it's like you get a flat tire on your car and you have a mental breakdown because what have. 

Brian [00:08:14] I done wrong? 

Liz [00:08:15] Yeah, I mean, what have I done? And then you go back to all the things that you were told that you were done wrong, whatever those are. And (it's) just so hard to even trace those. It's so hard to raise those. The times when you're vulnerable and you're scared and you're having a hard time, it's just really it's really hard. 

Brian [00:08:31] Well, and you even mentioned that. Let's see what was the term your end Graham's (that) was a big deal for your mom with your brother that she felt she was part of the problem and she had to separate herself from your brother because she in part was causing that problem. There was something that happened when he was in utero that she is bringing out now, and so she just completely removes herself from that situation for his benefit, which you talked about was what isn't for any four-year-old’s benefit when they're when their mom leaves. I mean, that's. 

Liz [00:09:03] That's, that's yeah. Well that was so hard on us debate a really long time and had a hard time sharing that story because I always thought like, that's not my story. That was my mom's sort of choice. Then my husband helped me a lot. I mean, she told me that and then my mind exploded from that when I was like 19, and I didn't know that time. I actually was getting my degree in early childhood education. And so the value I was learning all about human development age for fits in that 0 to 5 scope and your, you know, trust and attachment and all these things. And I realized how serious, how devastatingly serious breaking that bond from a mother or a parent, anybody you just love breaking that bond is so disastrous, I guess. Yeah. And go ahead. Dianetics, the book. Right. So my grandmother read it in the fifties and I guess fell in love with it. And that's what got this whole thing started. And so when Dianetics came back around for the rerelease and all Scientologists had to read it, I thought, okay, fine, I'll learn what my grandmother was so passionate about. Finally, like, why we're all here, let's make some sense of this. And all of Dianetics is about the engram. I mean, almost all of it. And he mentions abortion, women's abortion. He mentions mothers. Basically, if they don't do exactly what he says he will, they will send their child to the loony bin. They will put their child in the hospital. They will give their child manic depression. And it's all up and then it all accumulates. And this just keep them keep calm until they're eight years old and they can do Scientology. And it's I'm just like, why (are we all) doing this? Is this what we're doing? Because the thing yeah, at that point I (had) my two year degree, so I had my associates at a community college and I was just looking around thinking like, I'm not a genius, but I'm pretty sure that's not like that. That's not what we do. 

Brian [00:11:09] Kind of bullshit. 

Liz [00:11:10] I mean, but by that, by the time I'd already decided to go to college and I was choosing a path, you (know, you)'re going to many times watch out. You're going to have to take psych classes. Yeah. And one person even told me, you don't have to go to college because Ron Hubbard did everything in the whole world and you could just read his stuff. You have to do it. That's great. Yeah. And I'm like, even then I put up my little red flag. Like, it's the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life. That's so stupid to think that there'd be no more new thoughts. Ah, no, you couldn't have anything to offer. But that was me in a nutshell, in that part of my life, just looking around, everybody going, That's stupid. 

Brian [00:11:52] Yeah, yeah. So thIs a little off tangent, but we probably won't come back to it. Do you think that's why you chose to study what you studied? 

Liz [00:12:00] Absolutely. I realize later, after the fact that I didn't know what if I went on after early childhood to get my bachelor's in child and family studies? And I realized, yes, very much it was me trying to figure out something. You felt weird. And I just like, what is it supposed to be like? What could it be like? What maybe should it be like in some regards? And I feel more confident as a parent now, for sure. I didn't want to go in to anything like that with the skills that I had and the knowledge I had. I knew I needed into parenting. Good parenting. Yes. Yes. It's burning. Especially because, you know, being loving early childhood education. I always thought I'd be a mom at some point. And so I don't know. And even now, to this day, I do teach preschool at very passionate about, you know, little kids. I think we have a it's the most underrated job because it's you know, these are like little people. They're real, real people. And so much is established about who they are and how they see the world so early. And I, I don't know if Scientologists know that. And that's sad. I think certainly I don't want to clump of Scientologists together. There's a lot of people out there who absolutely. Who read books, go on the Internet, but (who are) raised in Scientology for Scientology, those people who don't have access to other ideas, they're not raising your kids without outside information. It's just so dangerous. It's Ron Hubbard's policies just raising a bunch of children at 2022. It's outdated, it's archaic, and (it's) not okay. 

Brian [00:13:38] To begin with. It was wrong back in 1950. 

Liz [00:13:40] Exactly. So, yeah, I think that is definitely where trying to understand why happen to my brother was really important to me. Like I knew I would never make sense of his suicide because that just doesn't make sense. You know, there's no I mean, you can kind of explain, but in your heart, you're never going to fill that crack with like a piece of information. So you just know it never will fully make sense. But I tried so hard. So very hard. Yeah. Yes. 

Brian [00:14:09] And the note that he left is just heartbreaking. Just get a little bit of an insight to where he is and this confusion and being lost and not knowing where to go. And as you mentioned in your episode, (there's) no way out. I mean, that is one of the few ways out that you can like. Well, that's it. I'm pulling (the ejection) cord. That said, I'm bailing out. We're done. And that is so sad. 

Liz [00:14:32] I know. So sad. 

Brian [00:14:33] Tragic. I mean, not sad. It's tragic. 

Liz [00:14:35] Well, (and it) is not just Scientology. I mean, suicide plagues, so, so many. And it's like, so what is that common denominator? What is it? What is happening? And all you can do, like all I could do is kind of for me, trace it really back to that early childhood and just be like, Well, if I want to make the world a better place, like thIs it. ThIs a really good place to start. Yeah. 

Brian [00:14:57] I think and I've seen this example and I've interviewed several people for my podcast that especially from the LGBTQ community, but they are told that's not a thing. I mean, of all of the many things that you can send in the LDS Church, including having a cup of coffee or shopping on Sunday, having same sex attraction, (that)'s not a thing for people that have that. There’s no way around that. 

Liz [00:15:21] Yeah. It's like gaslighting on the highest scope. 

Brian [00:15:24] And so suicide is like, I can't fix this. I can't. I'm not choosing this life. I can't. I'm stuck here. I'm told that it's wrong, it's a sin, and there is no way out. Yeah, well, well, there's one way out. 

Liz [00:15:39] There's a man. 

Brian [00:15:40] I mean. I mean, it's. 

Liz [00:15:41] A way out. 

Brian [00:15:41] And that, that, that's, that's the thinking for too many people. And it's not just Scientology or LDS. I think it's a lot of people that say This is the one true path and anyone that's not on it is flawed. It's like, I don't care what that path is. Everybody gets to choose their path and whatever path you are on, that's the right path. We can all choose to move forward or backwards on that path, but we get to choose that path. 

Liz [00:16:06] Well, we think we do, but yes. 

Brian [00:16:09] Yes, we're conditioned (that)'s not the case. Right. 

Liz [00:16:12] Right. But as we can't learn. Yes, we. 

Brian [00:16:15] Can. We can. There is an option. I love the way you stated. It turns out you can just stand up and leave, you know? But for the longest time, that's not an option, especially when you're enmeshed in it with a spouse that they're not leaving. 

Liz [00:16:28] Yeah. 

Brian [00:16:29] Or parents or siblings or your own children. They're not leaving. 

Liz [00:16:34] Yeah. 

Brian [00:16:35] And I had a previous interviewer say I found out that too late that when you leave the church, the church keeps your family. 

Liz [00:16:43] Yeah. They teach you that when you're little like they taught us. 

Brian [00:16:47] Yeah, you can leave, but you will be the only one leaving. 

Liz [00:16:50] Yeah. And you're sick and die. 

Brian [00:16:53] Yeah, and you will. You'll never be happy. And where else are you going to go? This is the only place. I mean, there's a lot of commonality between the two religions based off of that. This is the only truth and This is the only way to be happy. And it's nice to be certain they'll be there and to have that certainty. And now that I am chosen, I am on the path. Nobody else has this figured out. We do. That's a great feeling, except for when you find out later that one it's not working. And two, it's all bullshit. And you're like, Oh, now's where you stand up and leave. 

Liz [00:17:25] I know. But then I think about people like my mom, right? Like she was raised in it, and she's. She's tripled down. She double down. She tripled down everything that came her way. You know, she's just boom. Back to the Scientology when the ranch sold to Scientology down in Florida doing class courses. And for her, I'm like, you know, there's no point. She's like, in her late sixties, if she had one fracture of truth, it would probably come down like a house of cards. And at this point, with her, you know, health that age, it's just like she's living the dream. She's never coming down. She's in that ride. And there is something about it that I'm like, Well, if you are going to do the cult thing, you might as well do it to the end. Because though the further you go, the harder it gets. 

Brian [00:18:12] Yeah, for sure. I mean to say okay, so, you know, so I was in my fifties when I said and I double down and I triple down and everything else and I'm in my fifties and I'm like, How long have I been wrong? And one of the things that killed me the most is hearing some of the cons, (the) hearing, some of the comments that the church leadership were saying that were so damaging to especially the LGBTQ community. But women in general and I mean, there are a lot of different groups there that are downplayed and played as less than and told that they're wrong or not as good as or whatever. And it just hit me. It's like, how many times did I sit up there and regurgitate that same thing? 

Liz [00:18:51] Yeah. 

Brian [00:18:52] And for me, I just, I, I couldn't do that anymore. I just thought that was my response when someone came to me and they were in a world of hurt and they're looking for some help. And my response is, have you been reading your scriptures? Really? Is it (that)'s not what they needed? Right? Then they needed a hug and to say, What can I do for you? How can I help write that? I wasn't conditioned for that because the answer is double down. Get back on the path. 

Liz [00:19:19] Try harder, try harder. Give more of yourself. 

Brian [00:19:23] You'll be blessed for this. 

Liz [00:19:24] Yeah, yeah. Well, that's. That's funny. Scientology is so you're more devious and more sneaky about nowadays, about their views, if why they've raised so many things where Ron Hubbard really couldn't. Well, I mean, (he) called everybody a homosexual. That was like the only language that was ever in it and basically said, like, they can never be trusted (on any) level. And I went to Portland State University and I was upstairs. Now, Scientology churches have a downstairs, like a front entrance, and then an upstairs downstairs is for the public. Upstairs is for the Scientologists. So things are different. The posters you see on the wall, the rooms, everything upstairs is just a little bit different. And so I walked up and somebody visiting from out of town, a big, big leg who was doing a fundraiser. I walked by and I heard him say, Yeah, (I cured) someone from being gay with Dianetics. I, I process. I added up three times and I cured up. That was like 19. Like I say, I go to Portland State in Oregon. I know better than that. I mean, I was young and sheltered, but even I was kind of like, wait a minute, this can't be right. And everybody just laughed. And just like you made a ton of money that night, you know? And I, I realized, like, (these) not only can't be my people, but I've already been used as a poster child for these people. Yeah. I mean, the longer I let this go, the more I'm going to still Scientology thinking is make up. I mean, I believe in amends, but in Scientology, there's a very specific set of actions that you do when you get in big trouble, when you fuck up, and one of them is making up the damage. And so I just kept thinking like, I'm really going to have to do a lot to make up (for) myself if I keep doing this. I joined staff and my entire job was to get people off the streets to sign up for Scientology. And I sucked at it. I sucked at it because my job was to pick apart their personality test, bring them to ruin. So, like, imagine you come in and you take your test and I find the lowest thing on there. Be like, so this here says you're not very good at relationships, what's going on? And you're like, Oh, I just broke up with my girlfriend. Like, Yeah, you probably, you know, you probably really fucked up. It's probably your fault. You probably should get better and you need Scientology to do that. And no matter what, if it was work or family or any day you're supposed to tell Scientology. And I balked against that. I told my the seniors, I was like, I'm not I don't like this. I don't want to make people cry and then sell them something. And (they) showed me the policies and where it is on the little chart, like you need to bring this person, it's called to root it. And then I'm on the bridge and I'm like, Oh, it's a very good because I just couldn't. 

Brian [00:22:11] You have a you have a soul. 

Liz [00:22:15] I like to think I do. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. A lot of it was a lot of portly kids, too, would come in, you know, and they would just be like, Hey, man. And I just. I don't know how to explain. There was this was also at the time where everybody it was new form. Everybody had to sign legal documents, even to sign up for a $75 introductory course. You have to sign a three page legal document that says any of the initial every single line and you have to watch the movie orientation. And in it the guy says, Sure, you can leave Scientology, you can also go off a bridge. It would be stupid, but you could do it. So we're talking part self. Part self. I'm not a hard sell kind of girl. I'm like, Man, if you want it, that's cool. If you don't, later, there's the door. Yeah, I don't want to coerce people to because I never was really convinced that it worked. How could all these introductory courses work? I know people who are killing themselves. It's not just my brother. I mean, people are dropping like, fuck, it flies. And it's like, it's frustrating. It's frustrating. I'm frustrated by that. 

Brian [00:23:21] So I don't know if you have this term, but I had to add a new term to my vocabulary when I left the church. And it's it fit what I do and kind of what this podcast is about. 

Liz [00:23:31] Deconstruction, okay. 

Brian [00:23:32] I had to take all of the stuff that I had been indoctrinated or believed or values and everything and say, and thIs not all from the church, but my childhood and everything else. And I have to look at each one and say, I keep in this. Does this work for me? Does this not work for me? Is this something that I put there or is this something that someone else planted there? And then there's the part of it that is like, okay, so let's say you got a clean, sweet, clean sweep. What do you put goop there? What replaces it? My whole life has been driven by this book, and if I've decided (that)'s not right, I mean, for the first time you're looking around say, well, are there other things? Is that there's that's kind of similar to your process or did you. Yeah, I guess I'll just leave it there. 

Liz [00:24:15] Yes, I spent a lot of time figuring out what I was. 

Brian [00:24:20] Okay. Yeah. So taking this out. Take this out. 

Liz [00:24:22] This now and then. And then I threw a bunch of stuff out, just sort of because it was associated with Scientology. And then I was ready to kind of start looking, learning more and kind of going back and seeing some of the language again with fresh eyes. Because in the beginning, all that language and stuff really triggered me. So I ne I took years to like separate myself and then I was, hey, what was that thing that, that (we)re doing? What was all that? So then I started to kind of look at it on my own, learn a little bit on my own. And I also learned that critics like, you know, Ron Hubbard, for example, hypnotism is like the second worst thing ever. He's like, never be hypnotized. If you go, you know, hypnotized, the worse, the worst, the worst. Turns out. What is he doing? All along, the advertising people perceive some of the most important, quote, drills that every single person does, even when you're six years old, is a form of hypnotism. Turns out like sitting is are called training, training routines. You sit across from people, you say certain things, you say still, it's a weird cross between meditation and hypnotism, both of which are completely outlawed. So it's just I guess my point is just to say everything was different than I thought, especially those things I was told were really bad or things I was even told were okay. Scientology has a huge occult relationship. Turns out I was essentially really raised as like a witch in a weird and really weird way. It's like the secret. It's all about intention and power and like, I don't know. So you can't throw all that stuff away. I couldn't throw all that. 

Brian [00:26:02] There's nothing left. I mean, that's the only thing that stands there. 

Liz [00:26:05] Exactly. One of my girlfriends when I was going through all this, gave me a little journal. It said 52 lists to happiness. And you're supposed to feel that like my favorite, whether my favorite, whatever. And I hadn't I had nothing like the things I like to do. On a rainy day, I was looking at a blank page like, I don't even know. And it's not that I never experienced a rainy day. It was just I was like a new person. And I didn't I don't know anything that made me happy and anything that was worthwhile. I don't (I have no) idea. So but I was already a mom. I already had things on my plate. So I just kind of kept going through the motions, going through the motions. And eventually I connected with some other second generation Scientologists. And that really, really helped me because I thought I was alone. I thought nobody could understand what I had gone through. And it's not like nobody could understand. It's just like I didn't have the time to explain it. All right? Right. I just needed somebody who. I could just talk in that language and say, thIs what happened. And I didn't have to go through all this background. Now I can handle it. But you know what? I'm talking on your throws of that. You just need to make sense. And you need another expert to debate with you. Your soundboard with you. Yeah. 

Brian [00:27:16] Or to just say, yeah, I've been there. I totally get that. 

Liz [00:27:19] Yeah, listen. Exactly. But that, you know, they know what you're saying because I had friends who are Scientologists and they did their best, and they're such good people. Some of them are still my friend to this day. But you have to explain things different to somebody (who) who wasn't there. Yeah. Who doesn't really know. So that was really, really, really valuable for me. But I started having really bad panic attacks about a year and a half before, maybe a year, year and a half before the. We filmed for the episode before I even had considered even speaking out publicly. So it. 

Brian [00:27:51] Was like this 2015. 

Liz [00:27:53] Ish. Let's see. Yes. Because (my) littlest was about to I had my family lAnd there was just all these problems. And I started having panic attacks. I'd never had them before. I went to counseling, went to therapy for the very first time in my entire life, which. 

Brian [00:28:09] Is a no. No. Right. 

Liz [00:28:10] Right. I didn't tell my mom. I mean, like, even though I wasn't a practicing Scientologist and she knew that I wasn't going to tell her. Yeah, and excuse me, the counselor and I, you know, we came I kind of came to a plan of like, I'm not going to worry about it, all right? Now I'm just going to focus on building a relationship with my mom. I had moved out when I was 15, and I had just moved back in my thirties, so I hadn't even lived in the same town as her for 15 years. And before that I went to boarding school. Yeah. So I was trying to be like, I'm going to get to know my life. We're going to do this. 

Brian [00:28:42] So were you back in Florida in your thirties or Oregon? Oregon. Okay. She was living on the property. 

Liz [00:28:47] Yes. Okay. My kid was three before that. I mean, like back in 2016, I moved out there. My husband moved down there a little. We were boyfriend girlfriend at the time are pretty young. He moved out and we kind of became the like lackeys of the property. He did a lot of change signing and it was good until it wasn't good. And then once it wasn't good, I realized really quickly who called the shots. And what had happened was when I had my second kid, (we)re involved in medical marijuana. We grew medical marijuana for my husband's dad. So we had like just a couple of plants and my mom found them when I was giving birth and she was watching my other child. She didn't say anything about it for a long time, but what ended up coming to pass was her husband said if there was one cannabis plant on our entire 1300 acres, he refused to live there. And so we kind of talked it out and she said, well, (we're) going to leave and you're going to take care of the property now. And I was like, okay, so during all that time, I kept wondering, like, are we going to have a relationship? What's happening here? ThIs super weird. So we didn't even have to do the marijuana thing, but they were like, You do what you're going to do out here. Here's the bills, here's the property, here's, you know, you guys take care of everything now. And so I don't really believe in logging. I don't believe I believe in hemp is a very renewable (I don't) believe in forestry. I'm kind of disgusted by it. That's a whole other thing. Yeah. And so we had other family members who also owned the property with us, and they also were all about, you know, moving toward the medical marijuana. And my parents just really didn't like it and they felt really slighted. And my stepdad biggest client is Narconon, which is like (an)ti-drug campaign. And it was really embarrassing for them. And my mom just stopped talking to me and then she started asking me to take my kid to Florida. And she kept asking me and asking me. And I just started having panic attacks like I was going to lose my kid, like he was going to go there and (he was going to believe it with their shiny buildings and their trophies and their happy people and hard sell. Yeah. And that thIs it. And that happened to a friend of mine, a kid who was my older brother's anyway, just like childless friends. She had a daughter and she just said, Hey, I'm not a Scientologist, but I'm not going to fight it. And her parents indoctrinated her daughter heavily. And like I know for a fact, my mom tried to indoctrinate all my cousins. She would pull them away from their parents and like trying to teach them Scientology and like tell them not to tell. So not to mention the very first time my husband met my parents, my stepfather told her, your child will be a Scientologist, whether you like it or not. So after that, (we)re all just like. 

Brian [00:31:44] Yeah. 

Liz [00:31:46] Yeah. 

Brian [00:31:46] Yeah, we're not sending anybody to Clearwater. Sorry. 

Liz [00:31:49] No, I mean, you told. Yeah, exactly. Like now you don't get to have (it, you don't get) to do that. And that's hard and sad because I felt bad for my mom. I mean, I really do. 

Brian [00:31:58] But (and) for your kids, they don't have that relationship. I mean. 

Liz [00:32:02] Yeah. 

Brian [00:32:02] Because you can't trust that relationship. Exactly. I mean, you do trust that relationship. You know exactly what it's going to be. And so that's even scarier. You know where it's going. And (you can't) let that go there. So I was going to ask you. If I were to ask your kids what they thought of Scientology right now, (what kind of) response would they give? Do they know anything about it or are they. It was just a thing my family used to do. And yeah. 

Liz [00:32:27] Well, my kids are pretty different in age. So my older one is 16. Okay. So he knows lots. I think he's seen the whole show, the whole the aftermath show gets it. But he never he hasn't like asked me a ton of questions. I think more it's more like we live in a small town. And so, like, sometimes groups of people kind of find out. 

Brian [00:32:52] Yeah, small town. Yeah. 

Liz [00:32:53] And then that's kind of like where it comes back, which at the end of the day makes me feel really happy because that is 100% protection. Plan is like, I live in a small town, you guys all know my background. So if there's any like weird vehicles, you guys know what's going on already? That makes me feel good. Yeah, so much, though. They've pretty much left me alone, unless it's all pretty covert, but I'll do anything very exciting. 

Brian [00:33:18] So I have a couple of other questions. In the in the LDS Church, there's a saying that says people can leave the church, but they just can't leave it alone. And what they mean by that is when they leave, they get vocal like you and they things bother them and they want to help others out and they want to they see this injustice and they want to point it out to others. And it's not necessarily attacking the church, but it's just thIs what I believe. Now, I'm going to talk about what I believe now. And so you got to that point and you mentioned a couple of times that you can either fly under the radar or you can stay in the shadows and just kind of (just) quietly leave. But I'm interested in your frame of mind when you decided I'm I've left, but I can't just sit here and be quiet anymore. (I need to) talk about it. I need to address this. 

Liz [00:34:10] And I think if something happened to my family, family's just the worst. They're just the worst I found I'm going to back up. I thought that Scientology was just kind of messed up. People were on the wrong track. I wasn't really aware how much actual corruption covers up, how I explain this in a very short way. Long story short, my very a family member of mine was in a sting operation for child pornography and a bunch of investigation happened. And I found out about it later. And then he supposedly was like rehabilitated with Scientology. And I knew in my gut and beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was not rehabilitated. And I told my mom, I told some people, and they just told me that he did a Scientology. He did his quote, conditions. Those are the things, the steps you do and you mess up. And one of them, like I mentioned earlier, is amends. So he purchased a car for a teenager and he paid for some of some classes at a community college. And then he did these Scientology steps and he was absolved and he was cured and good to go. And he was okay to be around the little girls and it was not okay. And I tried to tell them and then I told them. Then I looked at him right in the face and I said, and of course me like I had already been told, like you're trying to make drama and you're like, Dude, you're such a problem. And so I'm just like, Look, I'm not trying to make a problem for you. I'm not trying to create a drama that does not exist. I'm trying to tell you that your daughter is at risk. Yeah, I know this individual. I was raised in this family, too. I have been here and I happened to see another side of Scientology that thIs not going to fix this. I said these exact things and I was told he did his Scientology conditions and he was good to go. And then I tried to tell and then I found out (that) that they had flown across the country on his dime to get the approval (of) my mom to go back in the family. And I knew she he was at like a turning point where he hadn't quite been accepted completely back yet. And like, this was the this was like even in even through Scientology, this little window. This was the one chance we had. And even then, it was just on deaf ears, on deaf ears. And everybody treated me like I was so out of control. I didn't yell or anything like that or anything. I just was trying to say, Hey, man, like your daughter. Somebody came to me and told me my child was at risk. I mean, I don't understand how somebody can react like that, but then I realized, like, they're always going to react like that. They're going to do that. And one day that was my kid or my next kid or my the kid after that (or their kid) after. That's going to be the same reaction. And at that point, it would be on me. That's not. That's not. I'm not. That's not on me. Yeah. Hell, no. So I made a stink. I made myself look like the outcast, like the black sheep. And he still was approved. 

Brian [00:37:30] But you have to know that they were looking for a reason, right? I mean, you left, so clearly there's something wrong with you. 

Liz [00:37:37] I know. 

Brian [00:37:37] And the second they find it, it's like, oh, that's it right there. Look at her. It's just you just creating drama. She is. Yeah, she's. I mean, that's what they had to hold onto, right? 

Liz [00:37:47] I know. It’s tricky. Like (even) those particular victims, those girls like you don't meet, okay. On social media. So sometimes it kind of feels or not in a weird way, because it's like, I (don't know. I) could protect my kids. (I wish) I could've protected that. I wish I could've. And I, I never want to call them out or name them or anything like that. I No, no. It's like I wish, I wish I could've done more for them. And I really did try to do more for their little sister. I even called CPS in Florida (from) Oregon. I you know, I filed a report. I just they were all into protecting it, you know, (even) even like everybody was, like, all protected and, like, their little bubble and. Yeah. 

Brian [00:38:35] What do you think they get out of it? I mean, from their perspective, do they just really think that. Well, (he's) made the steps and he's doing the thing, so therefore he is cured or is it maybe on that? 

Liz [00:38:48] Well, and thIs where the rabbit hole really started. Get deeper for me was because my grandmother, who got us in to Scientology in the beginning, her husband had the same problem. So thIs a generational thing in my family and the force intelligence before that, even there's this like pattern (of) abuse (within) my maternal to be very clear that I returned all of (my) maternal family and even the ones that mourning Scientology experienced abuses. And so I kind of came to the conclusion and thIs fictionalized in my mind and is actually what my novel stands response from, is the idea of like, who is this woman in the fifties who like thinks this thing of her husband? And since Dianetics is her solution, like, what the hell, what a weird cauldron of situation. So in some ways, Scientology is not even the worst. Like I'm telling you, this family is a hot mess. And (I think they) gravitated towards Scientology and that certain to be like, we're going to fix this. We're not going to be like that. And yet you ended up on this whole other scope. 

Brian [00:40:02] Yeah, but there's, there's a certain level of, of hierarchy. Right. And there is in a lot of religions, cults as well. And there's also the idea of protect your own. So I think that creates a perfect storm for to attract people that are prone to that type of behavior. Right. Because they know they can wield their authority a little bit and they also know that they're protected. And it's just a real dangerous combination, especially when everyone is willing to circle the wagons and say, oh, no, not him. He is this level or he's a (pastor or) whatever level they are in their organization. And they're like, No, it couldn't be. 

Liz [00:40:49] We're infallible because we have this amazing technology. And (it's) so sad, though. I mean, I laugh because it's like almost poetic, poetically sad that the one thing I've realized is the more sure person is that they have unanswerable answers. What happens after you die? Or these really big, huge things that we think we know you want to know, we might know, but we don't really know that we know for sure. Yeah. And so the more certain somebody is about these things, my red flags go off. Yeah. And so when you're going to, when somebody's going to sit across from me and tell me like, oh, it's good. Remember all those problems that have plagued humanity for, you know, ever? We've got those. Trust us. Yeah. And then you clearly don't live up to what you're saying. I don't know how anybody can fall for that other than willful ignorance at this point. It’s got to be choice. And I know a lot of people who are raised like me and they're so far into it. But we all have phones, we all have Netflix. There's no reason to not at least ask the hard questions we should ask them. 

Brian [00:41:58] But you're also conditioned to turn off your critical thinking. 

Liz [00:42:02] 101 nervous. 

Brian [00:42:03] About your doubts, exercise faith because those are two huge components, right? You have to have faith. Faith means believe in what we're telling you, what somebody said. Not in what your logical mind says. Well, that doesn't sound right. And you're the last person on the block, by the way. Right. There's the organization, there's the higher power, there's the community, there's the family. And what you think and what you feel. That's (that)'s so irrelevant. There's so many things ahead of you. And that was the one thing that I've kind of taken from this is, in the words of Glennon Doyle, you're a goddamn cheater. You be you right. You are your own God. Let's start from that, right? You figure that out and then you can start to question everything else. Just does that make sense? And if it works for you, then great, accept it. But I think you give that up and you give that control and that knowledge and that faith to any other organization. Again, red flags, right? You're like, okay, wait a minute. 

Liz [00:43:02] Yeah. And who would ask for that? That's like to get to say, hey, give me money and I'm going to give you all the answers. That is another huge, huge red flag for me. And Scientology fits that bill to the point where you could be they could tell you, hey, my stepdad, he had a heart condition. And he straight up told me, listen, don't fuck this up for me. Yeah, if I don't get Scientology, my next auditing thing, I'm going to die. And I'm like, Hey, man. And I can't stand in the way of that level of belief. Iris I respect human beings enough to know if that's what you think. You think you're going to die if you don't do this. You just you do. You do that. But that means I can't be a part of that. Like, yes, (I'm not going to) walk that road (with) that anymore. And that's so sad. I mean, it's sad for the people who are in it still. There's you have to give up so much sometimes to walk away. And it really price I wonder sometimes because I like to compare myself to my mom like she's in it to win it. She's never going to leave (that) organization and that belief system. Never. And I wonder how that feels. Have they trained her so, so truly that she could actually believe and feel okay with the fact that she has had two children in this life? One of them committed suicide. One of them she hasn't talked to in five years. As you get older, I think you kind of sum up your life. I think your relationship with your kids is probably one of those things you examine. So does she. Is she in the Scientology mind of like that's just one set of kids in a million, billion, trillion lifetimes is really not that important because Scientology is eternal. That's what's important. Or as she gets older, does that start to kind of crack? And I don't know which is better. I don't know. I don't wish one or the other. I've just contemplated that before because deconstruction is really hard, so painful, and it takes a lot of time. We don't all have as much time as it takes. 

Brian [00:45:08] And like you said, I think you get closer to the end and I think the pain increases because are you willing to admit you were so phenomenally stupid that you doubled and tripled down and that you may have actually caused these problems that were out there and they could have been avoided, right? No, no, not that. That's too much. I can't (that)'s way too much weight. 

Liz [00:45:29] So much. I mean, then you're just like in my family's case, talking about, you know, maybe causing and I would never say that my mother caused the suicide of my brother. I'm not saying that to be clear, but as those cracks fell, that might be a question (or) something that was looked at and (that) would just be really, really painful as well. 

Brian [00:45:47] You feel guilty for not being able to help out these young women when you did that, warn them repeatedly, call Florida, did everything you can and you feel guilty. You feel partially responsible because you couldn't do more. So to look back on all of that and wrap that all up and say, Oh, yeah, how much of that happened? Because I turned a blind eye and I just followed the path. It’s too much. It's too much to take on. 

Liz [00:46:14] I think it is. I mean, I think there's a double edged sword of being a second generation cult person, because at least you don't have to say I made that choice. I got us here into this into mentality that's on somebody else. Yeah, and that's nice, lady. I'm not going to lie. That's great. To have not wrestled with difference. The the bad side is that if you're born into and whatever you're born to is your identity. And so if you joined a cult after you had some sort of identity, you can go back to that you were, you know, a tree hugging hippie. Before you can you have some sense of who you were, whereas if you were raised in it, you got an empty journal full of lists of things that make you happy that you cannot answer. Yeah, I can now, but for like two years, I, I had no idea, so I don't know. I'm pretty forgiving of those people who are raised in it. My mom was also raised completely in it. So I guess you can just pick your poison, right? Yeah. Pill or blue pill. 

Brian [00:47:12] Yeah, but, you know, I want to go back. Because what you've been saying about those lists really strikes home to me personally, really close, because I have realized and (I don't) blame all of this on the church, but more of the type of person that (I was) in such a I had conditioned myself to always do the right thing, to not make waves. When you asked me what I wanted, I had an older brother and an older sister and there was some trauma and everything else as well. But I kind of grew up believing that she's going to want one thing. He wants something else. What I want is just going to make things worse, you know, I don't care. And so when I would see a list like that, I'm like, I don't have a preference. Why do I not have a preference? I also avoid confrontation for the longest time and it's like, Oh, when you have an opinion, you could upset somebody. 

Liz [00:48:04] Yeah. 

Brian [00:48:05] But if you. It's dangerous. It's dangerous, right? If you don't have an opinion, then everybody's your friend and you get along and they all like you. And it's very important for all of those things. And now that I have an opinion, I feel like I voice it sometimes and I've come to terms with and it's going to piss some people off and it's going to make some of them very sad and they'll feel bad and they'll look down on me and feel sorry for me. That's fine. But I have an opinion now and I don't think it's a really strong opinion, but I mean, I do have a microphone, so. 

Liz [00:48:35] Yeah, let's play with the microphone. Yeah, I worked a long time in therapy to try and figure out just like things that are very important, my values and really simple core values that I've been able to determine a few, I think short term with this. 

Brian [00:48:54] What have you got? 

Liz [00:48:55] Well, I mean, I guess basic but just kindness, I think is what I mean (is) so important to me. People are really actually are equal, like a cross across, hands down, just across the board, across the planet, gender choices, hair color, eye color, skin color. Every single difference we could possibly have. Like we are actually all equal and I don't have to summon that feeling. So these are feelings that like (I don't have) a thought loop about. You just are there and I'll have to. Yeah. And I don't have to convince myself of them. They're not what I want to believe necessarily, but they are what I believe. Yeah. Self-worth is one that I'm really working on. Beliefs about myself have in the past have been Bill. So (we're) going to get we're getting close. 

Brian [00:49:51] Yeah yeah. 

Liz [00:49:52] Well those still take a lot of self-talk, you know, like when things happen for I'm what did I do? What did I do to cause this? And if I try harder, can I, can I fix it? Which is really hard when you're an empathetic person. Yeah, because I can't fix a tsunami or like raising children. I couldn't even fix my own family. Right, right. Yeah. So I try to go back to the basics, like, I guess I'm just a preschool teacher at heart. We're all different and we're all special. 

Brian [00:50:23] Yeah, that (which is) fantastic. But you said you spent a lot of time finding those. And I my guess is those have been there for (you)r whole life. They've just been covered up by so many different layers of shoulds and have to and must and can't. And it just it takes a while to pull all those layers off and get down to something that's there in your core. 

Liz [00:50:47] Yeah, exactly. I think that is and our art, that was actually the very first decision that I made for myself actually, was that I wanted to live an artistic life and (I spent) a long time like (what does that) look like? I'm not sure that I mastered it. I'm always moving more towards it. But just really embracing freedom of expression, freedom (of) ideas, color, life, vibrancy, uniqueness, writing is a huge part of my life. So I think I was also focused that way. And in that way, an artistic life is like being honest, being vulnerable, being, especially when it comes to writing. Like brave. Brave, yeah. 

Brian [00:51:28] That, you know, that's the tagline for my podcast. Honest, vulnerable and brave. 

Liz [00:51:32] Right? 

Brian [00:51:33] That's where that came from. Oh, yeah, yeah. That kind of a thing. 

Liz [00:51:39] I love that. Well, and (those are). That's art though, right? Like, is anything ever any great piece of art ever been created without those things? I think it's all radically planned. 

Brian [00:51:51] And there's a committee that approves it and. 

Liz [00:51:55] That's how things get sexy. 

Brian [00:51:57] Yeah, right. Beautiful. That's what we wanted. Art by committee. Yes, exactly. It's the pick, the color, the other one picks, the shape, the other one gets a lighting exact nightmare. But I. 

Liz [00:52:07] Love that. I love finally you got to give yourself permission, right? I don't know if you ever came to this point. Maybe when you put a microphone, you got a microphone. It's like you have to give yourself permission. To say all the things you were told not to say. And I'm not. I get weird because I've always told, like, you're drama, you're trying to create, you're trying to stir the pot, you're trying to create dissent to spread in data. There's a lot of words about it. And that's really when I'm just trying I'm trying to ask questions like, why is what we're doing not working? Why? Why isn't this working? Why have seven people that I grew up with committed suicide? Because that's doesn't that doesn't make sense. We should probably as a group want to look at that. Yeah. And figure out why that's happening. And so that doesn't keep happening. I mean, I'm a pretty logical I'm emotional, but it's common sense. Yeah. 

Brian [00:52:53] Well and I would hope when people tell (you)'re just trying to stir up drama, you're just trying to whatever. I would hope that you would realize of yourself. That's not my intention at all. I know my intention. I can feel my intention because I have feelings now and I can feel that's not my intention. I understand how you might think about how it might benefit you to state that and to put me down into that place. I get what you're doing there and I'm not even going to try to argue you with argue with it because you're going to believe it no matter what I say. But I can feel (that)'s not my intention. My intention is love and kindness and that we're all the same. 

Liz [00:53:28] Right. And I have to go through a little bit of that self-talk loop, though. Every time I do it, honestly, every time it's just like, (why am I) doing this? And, you know, because it I'm pretty sensitive to like, I don't really want to be out there glorifying my upbringing or like sensationalizing it to like a tabloid level or I mean, it's silly to say that maybe because I went on like a TV show, but I'm not trying to, like, sell it. So like a tell all memoir, I just, I just want to inject some common sense into and I want people when they see the shiny, beautiful side of Scientology to, like, kind of be able to ask those questions, like, okay, (if you)'re selling courses on how to raise kids, why is your teenage suicide rate so high within your group? Things like (that) I guess plant seeds. So I had that one comment where somebody said that they like didn't get into Scientology because of me and it really filled my cup, man. I was just like, wow, you are welcome. Yeah. Yeah, because that's like the that's the dream, right, that you would share your experience in. And either you would help somebody or you would encourage them or whatever, whatever it is, inspire. So I don't know. It was I might I want to keep going, but I do every single time I have that conversation with myself because I'm still not quite over that hump of like it is okay. It is okay to talk about this stuff. I'm not going to stick by talking about this. 

Brian [00:54:59] You're not going to make those around you sick. 

Liz [00:55:01] Yeah, that's a great one. Yeah, I'm not going to I mean, I don't know, I my brother apparently had been just dabbling in or talking to some critics right at the time that he committed suicide. 

Brian [00:55:17] Is this from The Boston Globe? Yeah. 

Liz [00:55:19] Yeah. Articles, honestly. And so. Well, good on you. You are well researched there. 

Brian [00:55:26] You have a great story. Very interesting story, by the way. Not necessarily a happy one, but well. 

Liz [00:55:34] Some of my story I found out just along with everybody else when it was. 

Brian [00:55:38] On TV, it's like. 

Liz [00:55:39] Along for the ride. Yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah, (I guess) the point is that's always been hit pretty close to home of like it's it is dangerous. It was always very considered very dangerous to me to dabble in this critic world. It's dangerous for one, because I guess you could be attacked. I mean, Scientology is you know, how they are. But more than that, it's like you were I was taught, for example, this whole time that like I'm a really anybody who's against Scientology is just a really, really evil, horrible. You want people to fail and keep spreading bad stories or bad news proves further that a person is a bad person. And so I work pretty hard, actually, and maybe one day I'll be able to be a little more authentic without that loop. I'd like to get there, but I do very much when I'm like talking, especially my TikTok videos because just kind of me. Yeah. So yeah, like to just try to kind of keep things on the up and up of like, hey, this stuff's kind of messed up. Maybe we should figure it out. Yeah. And I try not to go, like, too mad or too, so. I don't know. I'm still finding my voice, I guess I should say, in speaking out, because I think there sometimes when people are so, like, angry and vicious and their message is last, but I might be too far on the other side, maybe a little. 

Brian [00:57:13] Peppy. You know, it's interesting because I've had I mean, I. Everybody that deconstructs has a little bit of angry face, right? I mean, they feel betrayed, lied to. I mean, just there's so many things and it's just I don't think personally mine was very long, but I think (there were a couple of) posts on my tech talk where I ranted just a little bit and those will get like three times the viewers. Whereas if I'm just sitting there thinking and it's like I have a little contemplative moment. Yeah, not that too many people. They want to hear you get mad. And I don't know what that is, but it seems like just those gaffes on the fire every time. So if you're just going after listeners, just be angry and do the screaming at the microphone the whole time. It seems like a great way to do it. But again, (that)'s not me. Have I been there? Yeah. Will I be there again? Probably at some point. I mean, you just can't help it. 

Liz [00:58:04] Yeah. 

Brian [00:58:05] Okay, so I'm going to ask a question and feel free to ignore it. We will skip on because (it's) one of the questions, one of the two questions that you crossed out. 

Liz [00:58:14] Oh, nice. 

Brian [00:58:15] All right. You only crossed out, but you brought up anger like it was a bit like it was a bad thing. And I have learned that anger. There's a fantastic book when I started realizing I had feelings and that they were telling me something. There's this great book that I read called Permission to Feel by Dr. Mark Brackett. It's great if you're teaching kids, but part of it is realizing you have emotions and they usually mean different things. And so there's this red box that actually has 25 emotions in red and green and blue and yellow. So we're not just angry, happy, sad or bored. Those aren't the only four emotions we have. But yet those are the ones that everybody says, Oh, I'm angry. So one of the things that I had is, okay, you're angry. What are you angry about? Because there's fewer than 4% of the population they can define. According to Dr. Brackett, fewer than less than 4% of the population can tell you what it means to be angry as opposed to anxious or frustrated or all the other things that are right around it has the same feel to it. Pretty close, but his definition is angry is the recognition of an injustice either in yourself or others. And I'm like, That's a pretty good thing. So if you're not angry at something, well, angry because I've got this puzzle due on Friday and I just don't think I can get enough. That's not anger. That's something close to it. Right. But I realize that even anger has a point. And when we say, oh, don't be mad, I think what you want to say is, don't act mad. Don't act out in anger. Anger, don't do you know it's okay to be angry? You're realizing an injustice. So that's a great big long spiel that I'll probably cut out of here. But I bring that up because my question to you is you kind of gave me a little bit of pushback on anger, but you did just bring up anger. If you want, we can skip the whole thing or you can tell me and I will cut out later, if you'd like, totally up to you. But I'm kind of curious because most people think, oh, you shouldn't be angry. No, angry is an emotion. It's telling you something. And if you're not listening, it's going to get worse. Right. 

Liz [01:00:11] Okay. Well, a couple things. So I think thIs also part of why I got drawn to being a preschool teacher, because that is essentially a big part of my job is to help these kids when they're having big feelings. And so we do talk a lot like it's okay to be angry, people get mad, you take some breaths. Well happened like what tools do we have facilitating like talking to your peers or getting your, you know, all these steps? You can throw. 

Brian [01:00:37] Things at me, but you can be mad, right? 

Liz [01:00:40] But you can be. Yeah, you can be mad. That's frustrating. That's. That would make me mad, too. I get it. I didn't have that in my upbringing. We had. 

Brian [01:00:51] Our emotions. You, Brooklyn, me a little bit. 

Liz [01:00:53] You did a lot of what I didn't have a lot of like that helping me through my emotions either (in) that way. Yeah. So I so I'm happy I see the value in doing that with kids. And so that said, I know very, very, very much have come to learn that my anger is grief. I have (a lot of) grief. And anger is my coping mechanism for grief, because that does there's a sadness. There's a sadness in my heart and in my body. And it's always right there. It's always (just) under the surface. And a lot of times I find joy. I take joy in things. And (so) it isn't really I guess it really isn't anger. It's just (that)'s an easier funnel sometimes. So I guess that's probably why I crossed out because (I don't) consider these days that I really get angry. If I'm angry, I'm sad. And (I've come to) learn that about myself. Of course, there are injustices and like things actually happen in real life. And the real moment that I do get angry about, like somebody attacks me. I'm not just like crying in a puddle necessarily, but, you know, when I'm waking up and I'm having, like, a hard morning or I'm like. Grumpy or something like that. And it feels like I'm mad and I'm not really mad. I'm just fighting through the sadness. And that's the truth. 

Brian [01:02:24] I think sadness and thIs just me off the top of my head. But to me, sadness is one of those things that can address anger and frustration and anxiety, and it can address those things and do things to make them better. But sadness, (it just) has to sit there and you just have to be with it and acknowledge it and know and be sad and say it's okay to be sad. But I don't know of any shortcut around that. There's no and it lingers and it's there. It might be there forever. It may be part of it. You can distract yourself a little bit. You know, you can calm yourself down. You can think happy thoughts. And I don't think that pushes that out, but I think it helps you move forward and still say it's still there. But I have a lot to be grateful for. The sun is out. I get to do what I love for a job. I get to spend time today with this person. I get to know lives a little bit better. We get to talk about things that are personally meaningful to both of us, but that sadness is there before we started and through the whole conversation it'll be thereafter. 

Liz [01:03:31] And yeah, that's what I've come to realize. And I was never there's a line in Scientology of what an acceptable emotion and anger is (that) line so it's actually acceptable in there is considered and above is considered survival anything below that which empathy, sympathy, grief and fear are below that those are considered unsurvivable non survival emotions. 

Brian [01:03:57] And so they have this level. They're, it's like, what was it like 2.0 anything below 2.0 you have to they don't exist or you just ignore them or it's a weakness or what. 

Liz [01:04:09] They're non survival. And so essentially stealing them is not moving you toward anything positive is moving you away from something positive. So the goal is to keep going up, up, up tone is what it's called or downtown. And I mean, you're essentially you're worth it's a compliment to say she's so up tone or oh, they're so downtown. So basically if I were for me, if I was sad, I got Nord, I got fixed, I got handled, I got nothing. No, there was not any actual connection at that point. But if I got angry, they cause I was acceptable. 

Brian [01:04:54] Yeah. So if you're sad, just go punch somebody in. Now, now it's okay. 

Liz [01:04:58] Yeah, yeah. Essentially. Which is really why all you hear, if you hear stories of abuse in Scientology, (there's) a lot of rage, sounds like a lot of rage stories in management and hitting and swearing and yelling to me. (I hear) a fearful leader that sounds like fear and really grief (and) loss and despair to me in an acceptable form. So. Yeah, anger's an interesting, interesting one. I guess that's why I crossed that one out. All right. 

Brian [01:05:29] You talk. 

Liz [01:05:29] About it. No, you're fine. Yeah. No, no, it's all good. It is really just that I've come to learn about myself. That if I'm angry, it's. I'm scared. You know, I've done a lot of inner child work, and I have this very skeptical seven year old girl always looking over my shoulder that's completely sure that everybody is full of shit. And I'm constantly trying to prove her wrong and everybody is constantly proving her right. 

Brian [01:05:53] Yeah. 

Liz [01:05:54] And (it's a little bit of a) struggle and I use that as my guiding factor a little bit on the anger because I'm like, if she's angry, then (we)re already angry before we got to this problem. Yeah. 

Brian [01:06:08] So my wife is quick to point out because I get upset with my seven year old self too. And she does with hers too. But she's quick to point out that person got you where you are too. And you need to love that person. 

Liz [01:06:19] Oh no, I love her. But if she's already mad, then I know that it's not what's going on here. It's something that I'm already bringing to the situation. Yeah. 

Brian [01:06:29] Gotcha. 

Liz [01:06:29] And that's the stuff that I try to check myself a little bit because. Well, just because I don't want to bring my old crap, I don't want to get my old crap to the new situation. And I'm just learning that about myself. Like when I and thIs new for me when I feel that sense of like rage or like I need to defend myself or something. I'm starting to just get this millisecond in between, that reaction of like, Hey, hey, girl, are you okay? 

Brian [01:06:56] Is this you or is this are? 

Liz [01:06:58] Yeah, like, who, who? What are we need to do here? And that's just I'm not saying I catch it every time, but that's kind of where I'm at in my like emotional. So it's funny. It's funny how you can do so well and come around full circle and then find a whole new layer of self to sort of deprogram again. Because and when my kids turn the age of certain events that have happened to me, oh, my God, my kid is eight. My second child is eight. When my first child turned eight, I had like that's when I started speaking out because I was eight when I had to do Scientology. When I got sent to boarding school, my brother was eight. It's like a year. And I was so, so, so, so, so mad. So mad. Now I look back and I was like, I was scared shitless. That was going to happen to my kid. Yeah. Yeah. Even though that didn't. I'm his mother. I'm the one. I'm the one who would stop that from happening. He's clearly not going to happen. But that seven year old little girl inside me, you saw that happening with that age coming around and was still just (we)re I was so scared and. 

Brian [01:08:02] Getting. 

Liz [01:08:03] Attention. And that came out as best and came out as like anger (and fighting). So. So I am angry about certain things. I mean, you know, the whole abuse cover up makes me angry. That makes that makes me really pissed off. But with even other recognition of. 

Brian [01:08:19] Of an injustice, right? I mean, that is anger. That that's anger. That is (that's) what it's there for. You're supposed to do something about it. So what do you do exactly? You speak up. Well, you're just creating drama. Nope. 

Liz [01:08:31] No, not really. Not it at all. And that's right. In a not existing in a vacuum also really helps because being able to like share, say, on TOK, which is, you know, just whatever. Like here we are all on TikTok sharing our ideas and I don't really have any end game plan. I'm not really in a niche where I'm going to be influencing anybody. So I don't know, just kind of have fun and have a sounding board, but it's really helpful to hear back from people, Hey, that sounds like this term and that sounds like this term. I've learned a lot of new words and that does help. But I got I have that grief to process. So I'm just at this point like realizing, wow, it's not gone. It never went away. 

Brian [01:09:12] Yeah, well, and you brought this up in one of your other conversations that I think one of the things about Tik Tok and social media, when you reach out and you talk against or about what you had just left while you're deconstructing, you're looking for your new tribe. 

Liz [01:09:26] Yes. 

Brian [01:09:27] If this resonates with someone else and they reach out to me, there's someone else that knows what I'm talking about. And I don't need to go through the entire process of and explain it. They get it. And we can kind of have a shared moment to say it wasn't just me. And how often along the path where you thinking thIs just me? I'm the only one (that) has this problem. Why? No, you're not. There are so many people that have it. And so it's nice to make that connection and say, Oh, so it's not just me. This really is all bullshit. Other people are seeing this too. Okay, I've for a minute there, I thought I was the only one, but. 

Liz [01:10:01] For like two decades, I thought I was the only one. Yeah, thank goodness. Yes. 

Brian [01:10:05] And now someone. 

Liz [01:10:06] That's struggling. 

Brian [01:10:07] With that can see. 

Liz [01:10:08] You. 

Brian [01:10:09] And think, oh, I get it now. And so you're kind of breaking those grounds. And like you said, I don't you don't have an end game. I think you kind of do a little bit in that. I think having gone through that, it's just human nature of people that are kind that want to be there for someone else. 

Liz [01:10:24] Yeah, well, and selfishly, that does fulfill me when you're like, Oh, there's really not much you can do for sadness. Really. The only thing that I've ever found that relieves that sadness at all is helping others doing stuff like maybe early childhood education, something that I feel like it when I put my head on my pillow at the end of the day, like I brought some good energy to the world, something that is meaningful to somebody. 

Brian [01:10:48] And so on. So it couldn't get into Scientology because of me. Nice smile and go right to sleep on that one. 

Liz [01:10:55] I know, right? I know. Well, and that is. Oh, that's the bitter sweet part of it, my brother. I think so. So often what it might be like for him to know that we could have both done this, that we could have both, you know, like and he was just a little bit before the big boom of the Internet and iPads and mobile devices. And I know what it could have, should have, but it, I thought, keeps me going. It really it really does to think because 19 I have a 16 year old son. Yeah. And like they're so good and smart and big and capable, but like, they're also just babies. Yeah, teenagers are. I mean, they're great. I love I have so much faith in all teenagers, but they are they're young and gosh, you just make you make decisions. You can't come back from some decisions. You can't you can't come back from. And so that definitely gives me moving of like what if there was like this way that, you know, maybe my brother saw something that had, you know, made him think something a little different. Just that one night, just that one night, and you can't go back in time. But yeah, you might be able to help somebody else and that will potentially keep you from going completely bonkers. Insane. 

Brian [01:12:05] Yeah. 

Liz [01:12:06] Maybe. 

Brian [01:12:07] And I'm sure you have a lot of people reach out to you. 

Liz [01:12:09] Do I have quite a few people to reach out? 

Brian [01:12:11] Thank you. 

Liz [01:12:12] But yeah, I need an early today. Yeah, I've talked to quite a few. I've had quite a few phone calls with people who because there's a thing like now that I've spoken out, I'm safe. If you haven't actually spoken out publicly, you're not really safe because you might tell on them. You might. So now that I'm quote safe and a lot of people, actually, I'm fairly convinced that there aren't any real Scientologists left except for maybe my parents and like maybe a few thousand people in their generation and everybody else is just playing along. And I used to respect that being under the radar. And I don't anymore. I don't. That's a hard line. ThIs one of my values that I've come to learn about myself is that if we're going to be silent against abuses, we're condoning in enabling those abuses. So if you stand by Scientology at this point and refuse to have a conversation about the abuses, then you essentially are condoning it. And (you've) lost my respect. You've lost my time. 

Brian [01:13:14] So when you left Scientology, did you have to sneak back into the office and rip up your billion year contract? What did you have to do? Just stop going and say Not me anymore. And that was it. Or is there a process that you go through? 

Liz [01:13:29] Well, I am a I'm a resourceful individual, I'll tell you that. I, I you. Okay. Well, here we go. My dad could not join this organization because he had done LSD as a teenager. And I knew this very early on in life. So after I signed my billion year contract, my mother told me I could not go into the Sea Org till I was 16. So I felt like, as I talked about on the show, I had a prison sentence. I actually attempted suicide during that time. The other part of that is that I sourced LSD and I did it multiple times, specifically with the goal that I would be ineligible to go into the Sea Org. So when my day came, I very gloriously told everybody that I had done essentially the worst thing in Scientology, which is LSD or PCP or pixie dust. I don't know the last time you tried to source pixie dust, but it's not on the streets. Couldn't find that just a 14 year old girl with no drug experience, just trying to find LSD to get out of work. And I'll tell you what I get. Why Ron Hubbard said that you can't do LSD because you will never have that experience. And look at Scientology the same again. You just can't. Well, they probably. 

Brian [01:14:52] Tell me about that. Tell me about that. What was the change? What did you notice after during? 

Liz [01:14:57] Well, when (I was) 14. And like I said, I'd never done any drugs or anything like that. 

Brian [01:15:01] And I start with LSD because, you know. 

Liz [01:15:03] That's that seems reasonable to me. We couldn't get it past us. 

Brian [01:15:07] Where's a girl going to. 

Liz [01:15:08] How to get PCP there? I don't even know what that is. I got some from a friend and we did some and we just did what we thought (we)re supposed to do. So we listened to Pink Floyd course. The Wall. Nice. And at some point I definitely had my first bisexual, like, moment. Wow. Which very much was not helpful in this situation. But, um, and then at some point in the middle of the night, I just was like, I get it. And we're all just another brick in the wall. And I don't know why, but I had that. I had the quintessential sort of awakening, and then I did it like eight more times just to be really sure. Okay. 

Brian [01:15:56] So you're very. 

Liz [01:15:57] Thorough, very thorough, very thorough. And it's actually really interesting now because I live in Oregon and, you know, 20, 22, a lot of people are talking about hallucinogens in therapy Microdosing and I haven't quite gone down that route. I'm very pro alternative medicine, but I think it did probably helped me deconstruct during that time because I don't know if you've ever done LSD, but it provides you with a very different sensory experience and just a totally different input. And it made me realize that there was something more being kept from me. And I guess ontology always said, ThIs everything, thIs everything, we have everything. And then (when I) did it, I realized, you don't have this. 

Brian [01:16:47] Yeah, thIs no. 

Liz [01:16:49] ThIs big lawyer. Yes. So you guys don't have this. And from then on, I actually read this celestial prophecy. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that work very short after and I went down this alternative rabbit hole of just kind of finding like love as my guiding spirit, like fun and just trying to get away from the drama I. To community college at 15 because I graduated at 14. So I got into a whole nother peer group. So I got some separation. But essentially I don't know where we started, what the question was, but that was my solution. I didn't have to rip up my billion year contract. I had to do illicit drugs and then tell them about it. And then they never asked me again because that's the hard line. 

Brian [01:17:37] Okay. But there's still some record out there that has you as a member or their know or do you fix that or you just say, I'm done, I'm walking out. I don't. Because in the LDS church, so your names are on the record and til you ask them to be removed, okay, you actually have to have a legal document. And there was a long time where they would double check and there was a six month waiting period and everything else. You could just walk out the door and not come back. But technically, you're still on the right. 

Liz [01:18:06] Roster. 

Brian [01:18:07] But you're still on the roster unless you asked to be removed. So when you ask to be removed, all of your if you're a male, all of your priesthood, all of the blessings that you've received and whatever, they're all taken away. Now, technically, they're still there if you don't, right? If you are sealed in the temple for an eternal marriage, that's still valid. Although whether or not you're worthy is still another question. But once you say Take my name off the records in order to get back into church, you have to be baptized again like you were when you were eight. You have to go through the temple again. There has to be a waiting period. There has to be all these. You're literally starting from scratch, right? And because my wife and I were married in the temple, our kids were born in the covenant. So they're sealed as part of our family. Moving forward, taking your name off the records take puts a wrecking ball through all of that. 

Liz [01:18:58] I see. 

Brian [01:18:59] So if you don't believe that any of that matters and take your names off the records. However, if you leave and you're quietly and you're just like, I just don't go there anymore, then maybe you've got a safety mechanism in cases, but no bullshit. But the church could also claim that they have 16 million members. Right. Okay. How many of them went to church last Sunday? Well, significantly less than that. 

Liz [01:19:22] Yeah. 

Brian [01:19:23] I'll never say, but. 

Liz [01:19:25] Well, in that regard I use the very same approach. I was a quote the Scientologist until I. Until I spoke out. Really. And then if I was declared a suppressive person, I don't I didn't receive the paperwork, but everybody else would have. 

Brian [01:19:38] Paperwork if we're excommunicated or have to put in the paperwork to say, I want my name taken off the record. 

Liz [01:19:44] They used to do that. I have it. But it's bad public relations. Nobody gets their actual paper anymore. 

Brian [01:19:51] Oh, the social media. Now, every time somebody gets it, they have a party and they burn their temple clothes. So yeah. And that's all on social media. Now the church is like, What are you going to do to stop that? You got to acknowledge that they're not there anymore. 

Liz [01:20:03] But yeah, right. You got to send a Snapchat so it just disappears right there. 

Brian [01:20:10] That's what they need. 

Liz [01:20:11] Yeah, well, I don't know. I assume that I am excommunicated from Scientology just because I've been noisy, I haven't received (any)thing in the mail or anything like that. A couple people I've reached out to have not responded. So I assume like a different man, you know? Oh, yeah, sure. BLOCK me. That won't respond. But yeah, I just didn't really do much until I did sort of a big thing, I guess I didn't really speak out. I wrote like one little essay before I went on. I was asked to go on that TV show and then I felt like I spoke a lot and then I just didn't really talk about it. We lost. I lost everything, man. We were like a family of four living in a trailer in, like, a travel trailer for a long time, and I just had to get my life together. 

Brian [01:20:57] Well, again, that's a deconstruction, right? And you've lost all of your support. 

Liz [01:21:01] Yeah. 

Brian [01:21:02] So you're ostracized, which is what they want. They want you to feel awful, you know, and because they can at least say, Hey, look what happens when you leave. You take your family and you live in a travel trailer and you can't keep a job and your family disowned you and you don't want that to happen. So just stay. 

Liz [01:21:19] Yeah, exactly. And it is true. I mean, I know some people who received horrible abuse that when they do, when they have gone through these periods of deconstructing it, it takes over their life like they can't hold a job. I mean, probably I shouldn't say that. I should say it's very uncomfortable. They need a lot of support during that time and everybody needs different levels of support. And sometimes that looks like financial support. So sometimes it looks like just time I had kids early, which both kept me alive because I will never, ever do to my kids what my brother did that pain. So anytime I had a low, I never quite went there because I wasn't going to do that. But it's also kind of hard to be a parent and deconstruct, well, you're just (you) you're instilling values in somebody else. You're trying to teach them what's right. You're not really sure what's right all the time. You're you have to kind of together, right? Like you might need to free. Out and you might need maybe to take a week, but you can't even have kids. You got bills, you got mouths to feed lunches in my situation, yeah. You know, so little by little for me, which is why writing really helps for me and I. Writing fiction really helps for me too, because I've had to absorb so many stories (over) my life. And I don't believe in really telling other people's stories, but I do believe in a good story. So (I like) fiction. I feel like it can paint a picture. Everybody always asks why, why they seem smart, they seem intelligent, like but why do they why do people get stuck in Scientology or a cult? And I swear I know the answer and I swear my novel. That's the point. Okay, we'll see. 

Brian [01:23:00] So they get a finish so you can answer everyone's question. 

Liz [01:23:04] I know, right? 

Brian [01:23:06] Well, it'll happen. Say your face just like one day. 

Liz [01:23:13] I know, I know. Well, it has been a healing process. Maybe I'm just not quite ready to give it up. Yeah. Yeah. 

Brian [01:23:22] So are there parts of Scientology that you miss? Are there parts of it that you're like, Hey, I'm keeping this peace? I like the way this happened. I like the way they explained this or whatever. Yes. Like, what are some of those pieces, if you can think of a couple. 

Liz [01:23:34] Yeah, for sure. In fact, strangely, when the pandemic came around, I realized, like, I might have more and more in common with Scientologists than I had thought. And I and I'm proud of myself to even be able to say that. Yes. Yeah. Because such. 

Brian [01:23:48] A trigger has. 

Liz [01:23:50] For a long time I threw out everything and now I realize, hey, I can pick and choose. Not to mention Ron Hubbard. He plagiarized every part of Scientology. So any time there's a tenant in Scientology, you can trace it back to some other belief system. Which doesn't mean it's not bullshit, but it's helpful. Yeah. So some of the things that I still do believe in, I do believe in reincarnation. Okay? Not to the same not to the same specs that Scientology does. But I do believe in reincarnation. I do believe in eternity. And I do believe in the power of intention above almost all else. I believe that the power of our intention can change matter on a quantum level. I also do believe that there are other life forms out there. Aliens exist. That's along with Scientology. I also think some of the tools that he has for I learned (how to) look up words in a dictionary. That's not really Scientology, but I learned it through the lens of Scientology. And yet I think it's helpful to be able to find and look up words in the dictionary. I do think there's something to confession as far as our sins, the things we've done wrong, the guilt, the shame that we hold. I do think there's power in getting those off of our chest and bringing it maybe to a higher self or guiding place to see what you could do to fix things. 

Brian [01:25:23] So who (would you) confess to at this point for something like that? 

Liz [01:25:27] That's a great question. And I don't know that I have answer. My set myself really like knowledge. The truth of something that occurred, you know, like, hey, I messed up. Yeah, like I let this get the better of me or, you know, responsibility is like kind of a weird thing that was really drilled into me, like Ron Hubbard or Scientology has its own definition of responsibility. And one of the things that they have is called and determined, which means that you are responsible for both sides. So if you're truly being the biggest, being the truest self, you're both sides of a chess game, right? Like we created this earth, our spiritual beings. So we're playing the good and the bad. What we need to realize is that we are omnipresent, we are everything. And there's a bit of (that) I like as well that I take to heart of. Like I can admit when I've done something wrong or I was wrong and that's really important to me. Yeah. Because that's, that's the, that's, that's going to keep me from, from going down that same path. Yeah. You know, being able to admit. 

Brian [01:26:37] So where, where would you, where are you religiously right now? I mean, those sound like some spiritual beliefs and I don't (what)'s your overall thought on religion at this point? 

Liz [01:26:48] Well, my overall thought of religion at this point is it's human nature for sure to have a religion. And I think there's a part of us that's built for that portal of faith. We can generate faith and spirit. And I've experienced and looked into some Christianity. I really I like kind of think of them all as like vibrations on a rainbow. Okay, that's like. And I like (the) Jesus vibration. I like what I know of it, but I mostly just the loving kind of thing. I've gone to a couple Christian churches for some Sunday service. Not really my jam, but I think there's something there. Yeah, I've been to a unity church. I guess I haven't settled. I guess my point is I haven't settled. I definitely have been looking for something. I've been to a unity church. I've been to a couple of Christian church services. I missed. I missed people getting together and, like, worshiping. It's so beautiful, like. 

Brian [01:27:48] The sense of community. 

Liz [01:27:51] And I. (I can do) a lot of the Christian thing. (I don't) think of Christ in the same way. I just brain works a little differently. But I really I do value, I guess that love frequency. Yeah. So if I could find a place where it's just that frequency, I would stay there. I haven't quite found that yet. 

Brian [01:28:12] I think that's kind of where religion kind of takes over (the) spirituality. I think the spirituality of going getting naked and dancing it end, howling at the moon and singing in the forest, I think is a wonderful thing. I think getting together with community and being able to share that love and (sense of) belongingness is a wonderful thing. But I think religions try to come in and say, Oh, well, that idea (of) repentance or admitting you are wrong needs to be done to a proper authority. 

Liz [01:28:47] Right. 

Brian [01:28:48] And (your) (your) ability to join this church has to be done through a specific ritual that can only be handled by a practicing leader of the church. And I think (you're) giving your authority and you're giving the most precious part of yourself to someone else. 

Liz [01:29:09] Right. Red flag. 

Brian [01:29:11] Red flag. 

Liz [01:29:12] Red flag. 

Brian [01:29:13] Yeah, exactly. And so it's hard to see, in my opinion. I had a hard time seeing where religion can stay out of that. If it's become organized, it's become organized with a bunch of red flags. 

Liz [01:29:25] Exactly. 

Brian [01:29:26] And if you could just get together, I mean, honestly, instead of having instead of a like a marijuana Monday where everybody is getting the same, feel great or just go bark at the moon. On, (on) every once a quarter. Great. Right. But when you start paying dues and you have to meet someone or there's this interview or this process of worthiness, I'm like all red flags, right? It's just like scary, scary, scary, scary, scary. As far as teachings, you can look at any religion, I believe, and take out pieces that resonate with your inner being, whatever that may be. And it's not. They don't have ownership on that personality. The teachings are the same as they are in Buddhism, as the same as they are. They're slightly different. But that belief that the way that resonates with your inner spirit is, is part of. I think there's something to that. Yeah, right. And if that's eternal, if that's Yeah. That, that tends to make sense what that is. Be wary of anybody that says I know. 

Liz [01:30:28] Yeah, that's my pujara. Who's that guy standing up there who says he knows everything? Not that's not the group that I will be joining. 

Brian [01:30:36] Yeah, he wrote a book on it. God told him no. Sorry, red flags. Sorry. 

Liz [01:30:41] Yeah, yeah. 

Brian [01:30:41] He wants me to know. He can tell me or she can tell me whatever the case may be. 

Liz [01:30:47] Right? If God wanted you to know, you would know, right? 

Brian [01:30:49] Well, see, but faith is important. That's why he didn't tell you. 

Liz [01:30:54] Right now I know it's you. 

Brian [01:30:56] As you. 

Liz [01:30:57] Just that one guy I know well. And that's the thing I like. I think I'm definitely seeking some of that community that I you know, (that) certainty. I don't know that I'll ever be certain really about much. I can I, I it's so precious. That's why when I go down to those core values, like I am certain that we are all I am certain that we are made out of the same stuff. We've made different choices, we offer different things, but ultimately we are all of equal. We're not the same, we're all equal. Do you really believe that and precious to be able to have one belief that I believe is priceless to me. 

Brian [01:31:37] So there are a couple of things that happened to me that I was probably scared to death of on the other side of believing when I was in the church, I was scared to death to think that this would happen. And there are two things that really surprised me. And one of them, I made some notes earlier and you just kind of touched on it. Okay. So you mentioned several times (in) some of your stories that you've become more genuine and more honest. You become your true self. Do you think that on the other side you would have ever seen that as a benefits of you leaving, that you would become a happier because you are more genuine and authentic and. Honest or is that something that completely you didn't even think about it until it happened? 

Liz [01:32:19] I didn't think about it until it happens because I didn't think about it until I didn't know who I was, until I had taken away everything that I wasn't. And then (I was) sounds dramatic, but I was sort of nothing. I didn't know when I knew I was a mom and I knew I was like too human and stuff. But other than that, it was all up. 

Brian [01:32:39] In the air. 

Liz [01:32:40] And so I didn't really realize that I hadn't been genuine. Right. I don't know how to explain it. So then you're like, okay, I have this empty car. I can't put what used to be in there. And they're like, I got to put something in there. ThIs my chance. So what? And it's all up to you. So it just. 

Brian [01:32:56] Started as an adult, as a critical thinking adult with past experience, most of it painful. 

Liz [01:33:02] A lot of it, yeah. 

Brian [01:33:03] But you get to decide what goes in that cup now and you choosing to be authentic and genuine and honest and not put anything (until) you are pretty certain about it. What a beautiful opportunity that has become and I never would have thought of that. It's great to strip everything away. No, that sounds very painful. And it is. But there's a blessing there that I would have never considered. And (that one) surprises me. The other one you just mentioned is (when) I knew the answers for eternity and where we go after what happened to us when we die and all of that stuff. It was so great having the answer. That's why you're looking for religion. You want to know in a world full of uncertainty, I need to know. And it would scare me to say I don't know. On the other side, it would have scared me to death to think, what if that's not the case? What if you really don't know? What if you're out there with no answers and on this side it's beautiful. I just realized that not knowing, letting some of those truths, holding them very lightly and thinking, we'll see. I don't know. I believe that there's something I don't know. What, not white knuckle gripping them because you're certain there's so much beauty and serenity in (that) I would have never guessed that was there. I would have before would have thought that it would have scarred the scared the hell out of me to think that I don't know what happens to us when we die. And now it's like, I don't know. I'm not. I have no idea. I have some ideas. 

Liz [01:34:26] Yeah, I like that. I like the freedom in that because now we're not all pigeonholed into doing these certain things and we have to be this certain way. It's like there's more to learn, there's more to experience, and we might have a different opinion later. That's grown right now. I would want to be the same person I was when I was five or six or 19 or 20. I turned 40 in a couple months now and it's just yeah, I mean, I love (how you) put that because it is, it is a strange, weird gift. Losing my family, losing all of that, like, yeah, it sucks. But now when I sit down to write, I can be honest with myself, race with my own self. And that is the most important thing. Why would I sit here and write a bunch of bullshit that's like going to therapy and lying to your therapist? 

Brian [01:35:16] What do you get of that? 

Liz [01:35:17] What are you doing? So that is one thing I actually tell people that's funny. Maybe you do too is like, yeah, thIs probably the hardest and then shittiest time as you down to like the nothing of yourself. Then at some point you'll find one thing that makes you happy and then you might find two things that make you happy. And then on that you can build who you want to be, who you want to be, what makes you and might be slow and it might be scary. And I feel like a lot of responsibility. But you get to craft from scratch a life and an identity that you want and that you love. Yeah. And a lot of people never get that opportunity, ever. 

Brian [01:35:57] No, no. My wife has a saying that she says she got it from someplace else, but she couldn't remember where it is. A beautiful, painful gift. Be so phenomenally wrong about something you were so certain of for so long, because it gets you that opportunity to literally start from scratch from where you are now with that experience and that is. 

Liz [01:36:21] There anything else that's a human, deeper human experience than that? I mean, we're all here to play as humans on earth, right? So let's just let's go for a wild ride. Yeah. 

Brian [01:36:31] Exactly. Exactly. Don't be a carbon copy of what that person said. 

Liz [01:36:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah. My library is closing. I probably have to go pretty soon. Okay. 

Brian [01:36:41] How many times you have to go right now? You have 5 minutes. You have? 

Liz [01:36:43] Yeah, I do. I've got probably seven more minutes till they kick me out of this room. 

Brian [01:36:47] Maybe I want to see him drag you out. Okay? No. So, yeah, just a couple of things. If you had to do it all over again, what's something you would have done differently? 

Liz [01:36:54] Oh, shit, man. 

Brian [01:36:55] The one thing that just jumps out at you. 

Liz [01:36:58] I wonder. I wonder if I would. If I'd have played along a little longer. But you want to play along? Want to do that? No, I wouldn't have wanted to do that, but I might have been able to save my property and I would have done it. 

Brian [01:37:09] Oh yeah. 

Liz [01:37:11] Yeah. That's get a year. I (don't know. I) don't really like to play that game too much because I'll go down a rabbit hole. Yes, (I probably) should have done a lot of stuff different. 

Brian [01:37:21] But if you were to go back and change it, you'd probably change the wrong thing. 

Liz [01:37:23] So I'd probably stick it up worse. So let's just call a good. 

Brian [01:37:26] Thank you so much sharing (your) story and your ideas with me. I think you're an awesome, wonderful person and I am happy to have met you. ThIs is my bliss. Just meeting amazing people and talking about things that are personally meaningful. So thank you so much. 

Liz [01:37:41] Thank you. Thank you. This has been this has been fun. 

Brian [01:37:45] Thank you for listening to strangers. You know, if you're enjoying our conversations, please share us with a friend. Continue the conversation by sharing and liking on Facebook and social media, or for exclusive content and detailed show notes, visit our website at www.StrangersYouKnowPodcast.com where you can subscribe to our newsletter or make a donation to support the show. Thank you for your support.