Marie - Finding a Space to Belong

Imagine being ten years old when your family defected from the Soviet Union at the height of the Cold War and moved to the United States, leaving family members behind, bringing only your straw-filled teddy bear. Now take a second to wrap your brain around the big conflicts that light just under the surface of Marie's life. Her ancestors are Russian Jews. Her ex-husband is from the Ukraine. The blood of her children boil with conflict.

Today we talk about never quite fitting in and being afraid to speak out or make yourself known. Other topics include national pride, and freedom. Deep-seated triggers. Entrepreneurism, civil disobedience, education. The real cost of social programs, and what it means to belong. Marie also shares her thoughts on the similarities of conditioning and mind control tactics used by both governments and religions. So join us today for another fascinating conversation. 

Transcript

Strangers You Know #124 - Marie: Finding a Space to Belong

MUSIC 

Marie [00:00:03] The mind control that the Soviets use is the same as the mind control that some of the religions use to control people. And I was a huge fan of Leah Remini in Scientology. So this is the Soviet Union, like everything that she talked about, all the things that had happened. And I think that some of this love of communism and socialism that happens in this country, I probably do not espouse as much because I lived it. And I just want to say that coming from that, there is no perfect communism and people are not altruistic and what you end up with is dictators and fear and forced upon your will. We have a lot of socialist things here. Social Security, some of the health care that is provided. So think about how much you want because it takes away some freedoms as well. And are you willing to give away those freedom? 

MUSIC 

Brian [00:00:55] Imagine being ten years old when your family defects from the Soviet Union at the height of the Cold War and moves to the United States, leaving family members behind, bringing only your straw filled teddy bear. Now take a second to wrap your brain around the big conflicts that light just under the surface of Marie's life. Her ancestors are Russian Jews. Her husband is from the Ukraine. Today we talk about never quite fitting in and being afraid to speak out or make yourself known. Other topics include national pride, freedom. Deep-seated triggers. Entrepreneurism, civil disobedience, education. The real cost of social programs, and what it means to belong. Marie also shares her thoughts on the similarities of conditioning and mind control tactics used by both governments and religions. So join us today for another fascinating conversation. 

MUSIC 

Brian [00:01:43] Thanks for taking the time to do this. 

Marie [00:01:46] Oh, of course. I'm sorry it took so long. 

Brian [00:01:49] No, no, that's fine. Have you been dreading it? Have you been looking forward to it? 

Marie [00:01:54] No, I've been kind of looking forward to it, thinking like, what do I want to talk about? 

Brian [00:02:00] And what did you come up with? 

Marie [00:02:01] Well, I guess from my humble beginnings. 

Brian [00:02:06] I think that's a great beginning. It was the best of times. It was the worst. 

Marie [00:02:09] The worst of times, all of that. So I'm Marie Lapidus, and I was I'm an immigrant. This is like something that I've been somewhat hiding my whole life, that I have lived in the United States because I came here during the Cold War and I came here from the Soviet Union. And at that point, were the enemy. So you just kind of kept quiet, which I did. And I kind of got used to that, like, don't talk too much, don't tell people too much. And I kind of done that my whole life because I got used to that, right? Like, that's the M.O.. Like, that's how you function. And, you know, I have to tell anybody anything until I got comfortable with it. And then which was, you know, pretty recently that I actually got comfortable with where I was from. And I decided because I teach that it is a good teaching moment to share with students. Right, that you are potentially like them or, you know, maybe they're first generation. I teach at a community college, so we do have a lot of immigrant students from all different places, and then we have a lot of first-generation students that can probably relate more to my children and, you know, have lots of memes and jokes and an Instagram page and all of that. How to be raised by whatever parents, right? Like it's always like the big joke. And so and then, you know, the war broke out between Russia and Ukraine and I decided that I need to not talk. And then I met Bryan here, and now he's making me do a whole lot. 

Brian [00:03:48] Better at making you do it that. 

Marie [00:03:51] Yeah well not making right so but I think that's mostly when the war first broke out. I think I'm a little bit more comfortable now, but when it first broke out, I really was you know, I kind of I did a little presentation at an entrepreneurship center we have and I kind of said to everyone because it was like about the war that they wanted to. And I'm like, you guys realize I'm not Ukrainian, I'm actually Russian. And so they thought that was an interesting perspective. And yeah, you know, my biggest theme in that is like, I'm afraid more than of people here than they are of me, you know, I think and, you know, people think Russians and, you know, there's the whole Russian show, right. About what it was like. No, the Americans. Right. With the backwards. Ah, whatever. And they, you know, talk about, you know, the sleeper cells and whatever. And I, I just always I'm, I'm nervous and I really now can relate even more so to, you know, the after 911 and how our Muslim friends felt around here. But you kind of have that fear like you don't want to tell people anything because you just don't know how they're going to react to who you are. You know, by the side of fear. 

Brian [00:05:06] In your head makes you feel like you know how they're going to react. And that fear says they're always going to react the worst way. Right. And there's also the part of it that says even if they don't react the worst way, what's the benefit of saying anything at all? Right. Is there anything good that's going to come from this? All you can see is all of the negative and the worst case scenario. And it's like, let's just be quiet to not say anything. 

Marie [00:05:28] Right. And fortunately for me, my appearance does not give away my past nationality, right? So I can just pretend like I totally fit in and not say anything. And some people can say, well, you kind of have an accent. Some people don't recognize it at all. Some people think, I'm from New York and I'm like, Okay. 

Brian [00:05:48] Well, yeah, sure. I'm from out of town. 

Marie [00:05:51] I'm from out of town. And so I think that helps me, you know, feel kind of like I can hide more than others maybe. But I am kind of weary. And, you know, I probably imagine the worst more than it actually what happened. And I don't think, you know, all of my friends, practically, except maybe for one or two, are Ukrainian even over here. My ex-husband is Ukrainian and my children are Ukrainian. Yeah, but the first thing I told them when the war broke out, I said from now on, because it was always like, you know, the funny part, like, oh, I'm on your father's side as all the bad things that on my side you get all the good things like the genetics and everything else, right? And now I'm like, Oh, you're Ukrainian. Don't tell anybody your culture. That's always better for you now. And so kind of pick that. Outside, which was, you know, it's kind of a joke in the family. I always say my children's blood boils inside their veins because it's fighting with itself. 

Brian [00:06:50] Yeah. 

Marie [00:06:50] Yeah, but. 

Brian [00:06:52] That's the thing, right? I mean, that's something you can actually feel. I mean, I can hear your joking about it, but that's a concern. That's a pretty strong emotion. Yeah. 

Marie [00:07:02] I, I think that it's so weird to me because Ukrainians have always been our family. Right. Like, it's family. It's family for me specifically because my children are half of Ukraine. And so it is just so weird to watch all of that happen and think, you know, and they, you know, Putin always has always said, well, Ukrainians are Russians, like, you know, this way. They should be with us. He is kind of right in that because like we do feel such a camera, at least I do like to my friends and whatever. I feel like we're all the same because were Soviets. And so we came from a time when were all together. And I that's perspective that he has. I understand because it's the same perspective. I just don't want to treat my family in the same way that he's treating his family here. 

Brian [00:07:55] Yeah. 

Marie [00:07:56] Yeah. But I but I do understand that, like, feeling like we are all like we're the same kind of people. And I don't see so much difference. And I think, you know, Ukrainians have taken back their language, which is great. You know, they have that and, you know, their national identity and all of that. And I understand that. I don't think they have to be Russian, but we just have so much in common. I think just overall in history and we're so close together. I mean, I suppose it's just like any neighboring country, they kind of feel mostly people even closer to the border, feel like, you know, we're like, how different? Well, I don't know. Do we feel like that with our maybe people who live in Texas and California do not feel that Mexico is so far apart from them as maybe us in the north or closer to Canada, you know, like, yeah, when I meet Canadians I can't tell the difference of their Canadians until they say, you know, some, some except on the Canadian side. 

Brian [00:08:53] Yeah, but I think it's a little different, right. Because the U.S. doesn't really have that shared history with either Canada or Mexico. 

Marie [00:09:02] That's true. 

Brian [00:09:03] They all form independently, right? Yeah. They didn't like one. Maybe if Texas seceded from the union and became its own country, maybe there would be a little bit more similarity, I think. But the first several hundred years were the same country and now we're not. I think that's a big difference. And, well, we shop at the same grocery store sometimes, you know, because you're just right across the border. It's closer. Right. That that's a little different. 

Marie [00:09:27] But I think you still have, you know, a lot of influence, right? Like you have the food and the language and some of the I think you have some maybe some closer to that. Yeah, but. 

Brian [00:09:39] Food is still Mexican food. That's true, right? I mean, you get Tex-Mex, but it's still Mexican food. Right. Right. And nobody knows what poutine is, so they can't say anything about em. You have to live pretty close to the border or spend some time there to know what poutine is. 

Marie [00:09:54] Or ah, like hockey. 

Brian [00:09:56] Yeah, well hockey. 

Marie [00:09:58] When you hear about. 

Brian [00:09:59] Poutine, that's right. At the rink you'll hear about poutine. Yeah, right. That's actually how I heard about it. So. 

Marie [00:10:06] Me too. I think I was listening to the radio and one of the Canadian hockey players was on and he was. Because in Chicago, you know, hockey is pretty big for us and we're actually successful at. 

Brian [00:10:17] It, you know. 

Marie [00:10:19] And one of the teams that actually succeeds a lot of the time. And so we, you know, we like our hockey players and they would talk. Yeah, because we have some Canadians on the team. 

Brian [00:10:30] Yeah, yeah. Okay. So I want to go back and talk about growing up in Russia. But before I do that, you mentioned something earlier that I want to just touch on. You said for a long time you didn't want to talk and then you did. And then you then the war broke out and you stopped again. What was it that made you feel like you could open up? Was there anything in particular what was going on when you said, I can talk about this? What was that thing that happened? And then how did it feel not long after when you said, Oh, no, we're back into our shell again. We're not talking. Tell me about those two things. 

Marie [00:11:04] I think so. I started teaching at the college. I'm at Harper College, and I think that I had been here for a while. It was my first full time teaching position and I had made friends here with the faculty and I kind of got to know students. I mean, not so much, but, you know, were I have some that are friendly that we're still keep in touch and they tell me what's going on. And so I think I started feeling part of the community like that. I'm okay. Like they're okay. They accept me, however I am. And I don't think anybody. Yeah. So I kind of said, you know, because the immigrant experience and I know people talk about that, it's not necessarily the same for everyone, but it is an immigrant experience. There is some shared kind of understanding of what happens when you immigrate even. You know, we immigrated completely differently than some other people immigrate, but it's an immigrant experience of coming into the United States and what you observe and kind of how you react to it being from a different country. 

Brian [00:12:11] How old were you when that happened? Ten. Okay. 

Marie [00:12:14] And so I think that I wanted to tell my students that I understand because they can't tell by looking at me that I do understand. And I wanted to kind of share with them. I really do understand. Like when you tell me, like, I have this and this at home, you know, I really do understand. I may not accept your excuses for not doing your homework, but I do understand where you're coming from. So that and that's why I wanted to kind of share that, that I do have that background that I can relate to what you're saying to me no matter where you're from. But I think, you know, once everything happened, I'm just like, well, you know, I don't want people particularly we have an influx of Ukrainians coming in and I don't want them to feel uncomfortable, I think to some degree potentially with me. Like, would they? I don't know. Or kind of like, you know, I'm back with this Russian teacher or whatever or just to be angry, which I would also understand. But I'm not the person who's doing that. But we know that's not always understood clearly. I mean, look what's happening around the United States and, you know, how we react to these kind of, you know, not liking each other right now. It's so extremist in so many ways, even against our own people here that I just don't want to I don't want to put myself in that situation in any way. 

Brian [00:13:40] Or. 

Marie [00:13:41] My children, for that matter. 

Brian [00:13:42] Yeah. I this is a it's a brave thing for people to come on this show and talk about themselves in a very open manner when I mean, we will probably talk more about you and you will talk more about your feelings and your background in the next hour or so than you probably have with most of the colleagues there that you've been working with for years. Probably you'll probably share something just because we have a we've kind of created some space, right? Right. To just sit down and talk specifically about that. And that can be that can be a little hard because like you said, you may say things or realize things in the next little bit that you hadn't even thought about before. Like that's why that bothers me so much. I never considered that. Yes. Or that bothers me a lot more than I would have said it would for some reason. I'm feeling my blood's boiling now. And I don't wouldn't have guessed that. I thought we could have talked about this. 

Marie [00:14:33] But so I will and I will tell you a boiling moment that I had here with our union. We had gone into negotiations when I was here in our union to show unity, ordered everybody shirts to wear during the days so as where, you know, we had like certain days that you were supposed to wear your shirts and unfortunately the color that they picked was red. And so I. 

Brian [00:15:00] Took my shirt. 

Marie [00:15:02] Here. So it's a polo shirt and I just don't wear polo shirts and a big t shirt and polo shirt fan because they, they're very like male looking. Yeah. So I don't like to wear them. So I decided I am going to decorate my shirt because I cannot put on a red union shirt like that is like I don't think they really understood what that means for an ex-Soviet to put on a red union shirt. Not that I have anything against our union whatsoever and I respect the people who do the work and they're my colleagues and I support them. 

Brian [00:15:37] And you love the color red, however, whatever, and you put the two together. 

Marie [00:15:41] And so I kind of cut it up and made some, you know, like a little peephole. And I cut the sleeves a little bit and I made like fringes. And then the next time we had to wear it, I bedazzled it with, like, flowers and ribbons. 

Brian [00:15:59] It just, like. 

Marie [00:16:01] Made it my own. And when I put that shirt on that first time, I did not realize, like you said, like the blood boiling. I did not realize that I still had that was I don't know if it is, but like that PTSD or whatever that feeling is. Yeah, I was just like, wait, this? What is this? I'm feeling like, why am I so I don't know if I was angry. I mean, I think there was some anger involved, but I think also this like uncomfortable feeling of what it represented. And I and there was another moment where they wanted the union, again, to show strength and. So everybody went on stage because we had like this orientation week and they kind of did this. They said, Oh, everybody raise their arm, you know, like in solidarity. I'm like, Oh, no, I can't. Like, you guys are making me look like a commie. And I. It was just so like that, I think made my blood boil. And again, nothing against my colleagues whatsoever, for sure. But like that feel I did not realize. And then even my dean, like, looked at me and said, what? Like, are you okay? And I'm like, I don't know. Like, this is the strangest feeling I've had. And I was ten. Like, how do I even feel this? Yeah, right. Like, how do I even feel this? But I met. I must be a trigger. Like, of some sort that just happens in your head. And I was so uncomfortable. So uncomfortable. It hasn't happened since. And I've worn the shirt since, since we've had more negotiations and stuff and I was fine. 

Brian [00:17:35] But that was more bedazzled. More. 

Marie [00:17:38] I mean, it's as bedazzled I think is you can get like I spent a lot of hours decorating the shirt, like sewing. 

Brian [00:17:44] And all. 

Marie [00:17:45] That stuff, and my children were like, You are so crazy. 

Brian [00:17:50] Yeah. Because you don't have that right. I mean, they. 

Marie [00:17:52] Don't they don't have that. They're U.S. citizens. They're were born here. They're first generation. So they don't have that experience whatsoever. But I just I was like, I can't like I keep like it was just like it was a physical reaction and I did not realize I even had it in me. So that was my first realization. And I think after that I felt more comfortable opening up because I was like, okay. And I reacted and whatever. And, you. 

Brian [00:18:19] Know, do you think that it just became more comfortable for you or do you think the fact that you took that red shirt and you altered it, it made you comfortable, made you realize that, hey, I can handle this. And so maybe that little process is I can take care of this. So it isn't uncomfortable. 

Marie [00:18:35] I think there's some of that definitely in there that I changed it up. So it didn't represent to me in my head what it represented. Yeah, I think what I thought it represented anyway or like my, my past. So it wouldn't, I think I made it so it doesn't trigger me. 

Brian [00:18:52] I think. Yeah. Yeah, you know, but then when they had you raise your hand, you were like, okay, no, no, no, there's no way we can adjust this even just a little. This always looks bad. Always looks bad. Right. But it's I was just thinking about when you changed your shirt, it reminded me, I don't know if you one of the like 1% of the population that hasn't watched or read Harry Potter. I am. You are. Okay. So this is a completely we'll just throw that away then, because there's a part in there where they have to face their worst fears coming out of this closet. And they have this spell called ridiculous. And they turn whatever they're afraid of into something that just makes them laugh. 

Marie [00:19:28] So I feel like that. 

Brian [00:19:29] Yeah. Yeah. It seems like there was a little something there. It's like, Oh, there's this red shirt, but if I can put flowers and sequins on it and whatever, right? It's more humorous and a lot less painful and emotional then. 

Marie [00:19:40] Yes. And I like I said, I didn't even realize I would have that reaction that initial time, the first time I wore it. 

Brian [00:19:47] No. Which was. 

Marie [00:19:48] So surprised. It was surprising to me. 

Brian [00:19:51] Because it had been decades. 

Marie [00:19:52] Decades. 

Brian [00:19:53] Decades, decades. You can get over something in a few decades right now. Right. It's right there like this. 

Marie [00:19:58] It was instant. Like as soon as I put it on, I felt it. And as the day went on, it just got worse and worse. And I, I was surprised by that feeling that I had. I still felt that way, but I think maybe facing it was a good thing. Yeah. And then I could let it go. 

Brian [00:20:14] But it's, it's crazy to me that little instinct had laid dormant for decades. And so it was even there. And all of a sudden, one little shirt and it's right back on top. I know that conditioning or that memory or those emotions that are associated with that is just it's pretty crazy. So I'm going to segway this back to before you were ten. Yes. Before you came to the U.S., when you were growing up. And the whole world was just Russia and your neighborhood and your family. What did it mean if you were to look back to that girl and ask her, what was it like to be Russian? What would she say? What would you think of. 

Marie [00:20:56] I was very proper. So I think being proper and following the rules was important. You had to be, you know, part of it, the Russians, I will say, well, the Soviets at that point were all about education and school. So everybody went to school, everybody got an education. So that was important. And the better your grades, the more successful you would be. So that was quite the focus, I think so. You know, we had were not going to. 

Brian [00:21:31] Reproduce the sex. I could say that same thing about the United States, but my feeling is that it was you felt that was different there for you then than it is now. Or most people in the U.S. because education is important, and the more you get, the better off you'll be. But it seems like there's something there that we're missing. 

Marie [00:21:47] I think that there is the fear that if you do not act and perform properly, that there will be consequences that are much more harmful than what you would have here. And here you still have a choice of what school you go to, how you want to have your education, what it is that you want to be successful at versus their everything. Was it felt? I think even at that point or may be in retrospect very predetermined. 

Brian [00:22:21] Okay. 

Marie [00:22:22] So I think they. 

Brian [00:22:23] Also expand on that a little bit. 

Marie [00:22:24] So I think in every communist and or socialist system, which we don't really think about as far as education, if you are successful in a communist system and you get good enough grades, you go to college. If you're not good enough, you go to a trade school and that is decided for you and which college and maybe even what major you have is based on what it is that you're good at school. And then the same thing for the trade schools, like you're kind of picked into which trade school you would go to. And I think even though I was younger than that and that has not been chosen for me. My brother was older and he was facing that as he was going. And also, if you do not perform well in school and you are not accepted to college, you have to serve. And the biggest fear for my mother, my family, I think overall, but my mother was that he will be sent to serve. And were during the at that time it was during the Afghan war, the first one. 

Brian [00:23:28] So what year? 

Marie [00:23:29] So you're talking about like 79? 

Brian [00:23:32] 80. Okay. 

Marie [00:23:33] And so the U.S. was fighting in Afghanistan while were support, we as I say it, because I was me, but supporting Afghanistan and the Russians were fighting in there and my mother was afraid that my brother would go. And because were my father is half-Jewish. So in your passport in Russia, when you get it, when you're 18, they actually put your ethnicity like Russian or Jew. And for my brother, they would have just put Jew, I suppose for me they probably would have put Russian because I don't look Jewish enough. Not that my brother looks so Jewish, but my father had Jew in his passport, even though he was half Jew and by Jewish traditions he wouldn't be Jewish anyway. But so she was afraid because he was a Jew and Jews were not liked that she would go on the front lines and die. So I think that knowing all of that, even when I was a child, made it. So I would think about what would the future be like? I better perform in school or my options are going to be limited. So even though they didn't send women to into service. 

Brian [00:24:41] Yeah. So it's a. 

Marie [00:24:42] Little different than here because here you have you still have choices. Yeah. I mean, I feel that, you know, when you look at the different sort of strata of income levels, you can see that people feel they don't have choices as they're going. Right. And some people will feel like, well, if I don't go into the military, there's no way I'm going to go to college because I need to have it paid for. And there's no other way for me to get that. 

Brian [00:25:07] Right. Right. 

Marie [00:25:07] So they may feel like they don't have a choice, but there you went. Like there was no other option here. You may feel like this is my only way to be successful. There it was. You were going? 

Brian [00:25:21] Yeah. 

Marie [00:25:21] Right. Even though here you might feel like, well, it's the only way I can do this. There. There was no choice. You just went because you were not good enough to do anything else. 

Brian [00:25:30] Yeah, well, and I think it spills over even beyond that, because in the U.S., if somebody bucks the trend, they're kind of raised as a hero. I mean, Bill Gates didn't go to college. Look what he did. And I mean, they're just like, oh, wow, amazing. And I imagine if Bill Gates had been born in the Soviet Union, he wouldn't have been such a hero. He probably wouldn't have had such. He was he was definitely more of a rebel and was going to do his own thing. And it's like, no, no, we don't do that here. 

Marie [00:25:57] Right. It's very it's very strict. Then I remember going to parades and I'm claustrophobic, I think, because my older brother used to lock me in closets. 

Brian [00:26:06] But it might be a story for later. Right. 

Marie [00:26:10] Right. And so he, like you had like all the kids had to go to the parade, like the parents had to bring them to the parades and then, you know, like go on the floats and they would be packed. And it was like claustrophobic, kind for me. And I hated doing it, but I was like, if I don't do this, like, my family might get in trouble. Those are the kind of things you think, right? Like when you're going to these parades and, you know, like you have to follow the rules and you have to do all of this. Like, you have to be proper you. You have to follow the norms or there will be trouble. And the trouble could be quite, you know, maybe physical or whatever. My biggest fear when I was a kid and I look and I realize this now, I don't think I, I don't think I thought about it then so much. But based on the nightmares I used to have, my biggest fear that my parents are going to be taken away like something. Somebody will do something or somebody will report them for doing something, who knows what, and then they'll get taken away. 

Brian [00:27:09] Did you do you know of many stories where that has happened or that you've heard of that, where that had happened? 

Marie [00:27:15] So, I mean, we did have I don't know if I heard so much about it, but we did have like the reporting on your neighbor kind of thing. Like you better behave. I mean, that was pretty like I don't know if it was just stories, but it was prevalent. Like you kind of behaved in that respect. And maybe my parents told me that, too. I don't, you know, you know, like, behave yourself, you know, we don't want anything bad to happen type of thing. And we did have some family. I think they got sent away to Siberia at some point, you know. So I might have heard those stories, you know. So yeah, as a kid. 

Brian [00:27:50] So I was wondering how close you were to that, if that became a reality, because you were looking at it, you knew the people or they lived next to you or something. 

Marie [00:27:57] I don't think I necessarily knew any people because were again, were pretty much pretty middle class in a society that's not supposed to have classes. Yeah, right. So I think were a little bit more removed from that. But you know, my brother when he was there, he's a very smart man and he, you know, he's like eight years older than me practically. And he was quite the hooligan, as they say. You know, like he spit on the picture of Lenin at school. And, you know, the parents get called in, right, because like, you don't do that. And that was I think that was like my fear is like my brother will do something and then my parents will get taken away. 

Brian [00:28:37] Yeah. 

Marie [00:28:37] You know, not that was probably even a reality. A reality. 

Brian [00:28:41] Yeah. I think the loss of parent is pretty common with most kids. That's why every Disney movie, there's a missing parent. You can name three Disney movies where the main character has both parents at the beginning and end of the movie. Yeah, because that gets kids attention. Yeah, that's something they all, all kids understand. Right, right. Okay. 

Marie [00:29:03] Again, I don't think I necessarily realized that when I was there that was my biggest fear. Yeah, I have kind of thought back and looked at all of that and went like, Oh, that's what you're probably afraid of. That's why you acted the way you did. Because I was like the proper, perfect little kid. Because my brother was not. Yeah, not that he was doing anything really bad. 

Brian [00:29:23] Like he wasn't you spit on the you spit on Lenin. I mean, that's like. 

Marie [00:29:29] I mean, in reality, who cares? Like, it's not a big deal, but, like, you know, but that would have been like that was like a big deal, right? 

Brian [00:29:37] Like that was an outward sign of aggression, right? 

Marie [00:29:40] Yes. So and, you know, so I think that, you know, he was probably what I should have been like, but I couldn't because he was so quick. 

Brian [00:29:49] Side note, do you have like a civil disobedience to you now? I have another friend who was born in the USSR and there's a streak of civil disobedience and her a mile wide and she's like, What are you rebelling against? She's the what have you got? 

Marie [00:30:04] Let's I think I don't know if it's necessarily civil disobedience. I think I'm still pretty obedient. I think I that has been ingrained pretty well in my head. But I, I do have a rebel streak. 

Brian [00:30:21] Too to. 

Marie [00:30:22] Push like my way when I think I'm right and I will fight with authority over that. 

Brian [00:30:29] Yeah. 

Marie [00:30:30] So like in my professional life, I will say no, you guys are wrong and you should pay attention to this and I will. I sometimes don't stop soon enough. 

Brian [00:30:39] Yeah, yeah. Maybe that's a form of civil disobedience I was thinking more of because you told me I have to. I certainly will not. I have no reason not to. It might even be the best thing, but because you said I have to, I am absolutely going to walk all the way around and make it more difficult for me just to show you that I don't have to. 

Marie [00:30:56] I've probably done some of that. I mean. 

Brian [00:30:59] No, she does it on the daily. I mean. 

Marie [00:31:01] No, I don't think I'm as extreme as that. Okay. But I totally get her like I total. Right, like, no, you're not going to tell me what to do. And I think that's my I have that in me, but I think I also have that I understand why certain things are said to be done a certain way, and I accept them because I feel that there's benefit to it. If I don't see the benefit to it, then I'm like, Why are we doing that? 

Brian [00:31:25] Sure. 

Marie [00:31:26] And you know, do I have enough energy to do a real civil disobedience? I wish I did. Like I wish I was more of a rebel. And, you know, but I don't feel like marching. I don't feel like I don't have that in me. Like I feel. But that doesn't really do much like there's other ways, maybe more like sub like, you know, underneath things that you can do more of a rebel, like a hidden rebel that can make changes like a change maker more than outwardly. 

Brian [00:31:59] Without drawing attention to yourself. You can. Yeah, you can. 

Marie [00:32:03] Maybe do. 

Brian [00:32:03] The foundation a little bit. Not. Yes, yeah. 

Marie [00:32:06] I think more of that. But I think I listen, I always said, like if I had stayed over there, I would have been the perfect little Russian, like not Russia, the perfect little Soviet, like the perfect commie. I would have been it. I followed the rules like I did not. I was like, That's what we're supposed to do. 

Brian [00:32:22] Yeah, well, it's got the least amount of punishment and the greatest chance of reward, too, right? That's a that's a smart thing to do. I mean, you can sit here and fight the system. The system will win every time the system will win. You might get away with something here or there, but in the end, the system will still be here. 

Marie [00:32:38] Well, that's what I and I felt like watching Gorbachev was like amazing. I mean, at the time everybody was like, Oh, this is terrible or whatever. But like, in retrospect, he was amazing. And he did change the system and the fact that now they went back. That is so scary to me that would be the way that it would happen, that people fall back into that, that this is what they actually want and they want to be and they don't want to rebel. 

Brian [00:33:06] No. And I can't remember if we tried to rebel. Yeah, I can't remember if we talked about this. But at the beginning of the recent war, there were a lot of protests in the streets in Russia. And then they stopped. Absolutely. 

Marie [00:33:18] Yeah, they stopped because the parents of those kids told them to stop it because they felt because they were you did not rebel you. You fall in line or you get hurt. And some of the kids got thrown in jail. And so they said, do not do this or you're going to go to jail, you will be punished physically, potentially. And we don't want that for you. And you watched all the rebellion stop. Yeah, because that was I think that my generation and older fell right back into the exact mentality of not fighting and because of force. Right. Because of the fear of the force. And so and then I think the younger people now, a bunch of them laughed. You know, they that was their rebellion, which is very harmful to the country. We'll see what happens to them with that. And the. 

Brian [00:34:12] Those who left or those who stayed for. 

Marie [00:34:14] Those who left and who for it's harmful because The future innovators and the future generation of workers is gone. So the country now is older, right? Like, okay, that has remained and so and not maybe have the, I guess the innovative brains that were there because they're not going to work under that environment. They need the freedom. Right. And so they all as much of them who could leave left. And you know, I don't know if they'll ever come back. 

Brian [00:34:46] Yeah. 

Marie [00:34:46] And so that will harm Russia. Not that I necessarily care so much, but like in the grand scheme of things, right? We want everybody to kind of economically grow and then everybody else just kind of fell back in line and they spew the party line. And I think that some of them may believe it. I'm not going to deny that, but I think a lot of them spew it because they're afraid not to spew the party line because somebody could be listening on the phone. You're not going to say anything on the phone like we learn that you don't say anything on the phone that could be recorded, used against you, whatever. Somebody might be listening. You're not going to say anything because your neighbor could report you. You're not going to you just don't say anything like you. You keep quiet. You don't say negative things. 

Brian [00:35:30] Yeah. 

Marie [00:35:30] So I, I feel that they all fall back into that line, and it's just easier that way because they're afraid and I feel for them that they're afraid. But I also feel like you've seen better, like, you know, are you going to fight? But then what? I fight. I don't know. Like, would you fight? Like, would you would we get up and fight? 

Brian [00:35:48] It's so hard to tell, especially having different background, right? I mean. Right. But it is it's impressive to me how after two decades of being dormant that just a red shirt can have that big of an impact. And I imagine living there that, hey, you've got two decades of just kind of doing your own thing and exercising your free speech and whatever and maybe talking bad about things and trying to make things better overnight. That red shirt comes out and oh, I'll be good now. Yep, we're right. So it's just it's kind of like I said, it's not necessarily well, it isn't a good thing or a bad thing. It's just impressive that there's that much of a hold that is just dormant. 

Marie [00:36:27] That's just conditioning, right? It's conditioning. 

Brian [00:36:30] Conditioning, it's. 

Marie [00:36:31] Conditioning into. 

Brian [00:36:32] That. So on the part. So I've got a couple of questions for you. Still back when you were in the Soviet Union, what were the good parts about it? What did you like about it? What was your national pride for you that you felt good about? And then also and you maybe these are separate questions, maybe you answer them together. What were your opinions of the United States at the time or if you had any? 

Marie [00:36:53] So we had a lot of national pride. 

Brian [00:36:57] Yeah. 

Marie [00:36:57] You know, were shown the Olympics the our way, right? And were always the good ones. And, you know, our hockey players and our, you know, I mean, that was a huge point of pride. But like all of our sports people were really you know, were everybody watched all everything we watched the Olympics religiously like it was like holidays when those were on everybody. You always stayed up to watch the Olympics and that was like really the pride and I and that did make me proud. I still watch the Olympics. I'm always amazed that people who don't watch the Olympics like that's the only life, that's the way we fight wars without fighting wars. 

Brian [00:37:37] Like, you know, you have to watch the Olympics. Yeah. 

Marie [00:37:40] So we watched it. We watched the Olympics. We had, you know, pride in our arts and theater and all of that. You know, my mother made my brother sometimes, you know, take me to all the ballet. So I'm not really a huge fan, but at least now I can say, like, I don't like ballet because I've seen life. 

Brian [00:38:00] I've seen them all. 

Marie [00:38:01] I seen them all. And then, you know, same thing with opera, like I can honestly say. And even in the United States, my mother dragged me to opera all the time. And I can say not a huge fan. I mean, I don't hate it, but I don't choose it. Right? Like, I don't like I don't always have to go. I would rather go to a rock concert. I do enjoy classical music, but, you know, also in some moderation. So I think that those were good things. We had, you know, I had friends at school, went to school and school was great. Went, you know, that those European vacations, like people have like a month or whatever, you know, my mother would take me to, you know, we live in the country on the dacha. We didn't have our own, but she would rent them, you know, in the summer. And so we'd live on porches and, you know, like run around and have fun. It like it was not a horrible life. And like I said, were not like the poorest of families. Yeah. So we had some stuff and I think that, you know, we had a TV. I know it sounds. 

Brian [00:39:04] Like you had. 

Marie [00:39:05] A TV big deal. Like that was a big deal. There was like only three channels. And then I think the last year, like in the last year that were there, we got a phone in the house. So that was kind of exciting. Well, you talk about 1979 and we had a phone for the first time inside the house. Otherwise you had to go to the you know, to the street and call from the public phone that was there. 

Brian [00:39:29] Was it just easier to monitor that way? Is that I. 

Marie [00:39:32] Have I don't know if they were like available like there wasn't stuff. 

Brian [00:39:36] The infrastructure. 

Marie [00:39:37] Yeah, the infrastructure. And like the phones being around, you know, we stood in a lot of lines, but that was like typical. So like, you know those stories about standing in line like, yeah, my mom used to send me, that's what the kids did. Like their parents would send them to go stand in line until it was like your turn. So then that's when they would show up. And how would they know? Because you couldn't call them or anything. They just kind of timed it, I think, in their heads. 

Brian [00:40:03] Or. 

Marie [00:40:03] Whatever. I mean, I think my mom spent a lot of time standing in line just trying to get things. And, you know, but I'm not going to say, like, I had this terrible childhood and I was constantly afraid or anything. It was always in the back of your head, like you behave. But, you know, it was fun, too. 

Brian [00:40:20] And yeah, you. 

Marie [00:40:22] Know, I had a bicycle in the summer and, you know, I would ride around and like my brother would go to summer camps and stuff like that, which was typical. And then I was too young, I think, most of the time. And then I would go, my mom, because once they once you said officially that you're going to leave, everybody would lose their job and then you had to find a different job. So she would teach in the prison because it's the only place that would take her to teach. She was an engineer before that. And then so she started teaching at the prison because it's the only place she would they would take her. And then in the summers she would work at the summer camps, and then I would just stay with her instead of being with the other kids, the like in the cabin and she'd work like in the game room or whatever, just, you know, to have a job and make money. 

Brian [00:41:13] Okay. So what opinion did you have towards the United States, if any? 

Marie [00:41:19] Well, you guys are all racists for sure. 

Brian [00:41:21] Okay. Okay, that's. 

Marie [00:41:23] But we read a lot of Kipling books. So that was kind of, you know, that these bourgeois everybody is only worried about money. Nobody cares about each other. There's a lot of books like that I read that, you know, so. There was this kid whose name was in translation, I don't know. And so he was like, he had all these little and he was like tiny. And they lived in this. It was like a whole world that was created. And he was. So when they went to the moon, that's when they met. Kind of what the Americans are like on the moon. And you guys are. 

Brian [00:42:00] Like. 

Marie [00:42:00] Crazy and money, money concerned and nobody worked together. 

Brian [00:42:06] It yep. You got. 

Marie [00:42:06] It. You know, like, that was the presentation again. I wasn't. I was pretty young. 

Brian [00:42:12] No, you're not international politics. 

Marie [00:42:14] Right. And you know, the and it wasn't, you know, like it wasn't really the United States. It was just everybody else. Like, if you weren't Soviet, you were that was the kind of the equal I mean, the French were always considered, you know, high society. And I think that still came from the whole czar and kings and whatever, like French was the language that you learned in school, unless you went to a really special school where they would teach you English, but most people learn French in school. And so that was kind of The country that was acceptable. Right. I mean, you know, I still love ABA because I grew up with Abba. Abba was say, if you could listen to that. We had some Beatles, too, like the early years, none of their rebellion stuff. But like Michelle, my bill, you know, like simple things, all of that. 

Brian [00:43:06] Neither of which were Americans. 

Marie [00:43:07] Right. But those were allowed. But you were not, you know, like everything that was. But to me, I think everything was like, oh, everything else is America or whatever. Like, yeah, you know, whatever other countries then, you know, some other countries were socialist, so they were more acceptable then than like the totally non socialist cousins. 

Brian [00:43:26] Anyway, they're the strange cousins. They're not just complete right out there. Yeah, right. 

Marie [00:43:31] And, and so, you know, I still hang on my hair because were, you know, friendly with the Indian culture and we had all the movies and everything else too from the that were I mean, not a lot coming out at that time, but some of that. And so, you know. 

Brian [00:43:48] But you mean the Bollywood movies are the. 

Marie [00:43:50] I think I don't think Bollywood existed. 

Brian [00:43:53] Pre Bollywood. 

Marie [00:43:53] Yeah, probably pre Bollywood or like beginning of Bollywood movies and then, you know, so it was anything that was not Soviet was like culturally was very accepted. But I think like politically you kind of and I've talked to people here who said that they were very they were raised to be afraid that the Soviets are gonna nuke everybody and, like, kill everyone and whatever else. We never lived with that fear because were the strong ones. We're going to look. 

Brian [00:44:21] Like you're winning the Olympics, right? 

Marie [00:44:24] We're winning like so we so I never had that. Like. 

Brian [00:44:28] I remember as a kid. I remember air raid drills. 

Marie [00:44:31] Yeah. And I think we had that, too. But we never it was never like, oh, we're not going to survive or like somebody is going to come and get us. It was kind of like, Oh, we're going to win anyway. So like, this is just practice like of how you're supposed to behave, you know? And they did in school actually teach you how to shoot. Like everybody learn how to shoot. Like when you were older, not at my grades, but like when you were older, like there was, you know, you had like army type training. 

Brian [00:44:56] As part of school curriculum. 

Marie [00:44:58] As part of school curriculum, yeah. 

Brian [00:44:59] Yeah. 

Marie [00:45:00] So I don't think we had I don't think I had like necessarily a negative opinion. It was just you guys were different and this is what you did and we don't believe in that. So, you know, we're going to live our lives because it's this better way. 

Brian [00:45:15] So I'm going to have a quick tangent because you mentioned it earlier and I'm a big hockey fan. Yes. 1980 Winter Olympics. Yeah. Yeah. That was your time. What was what did you have any. 

Marie [00:45:25] I was here. 

Brian [00:45:26] Oh you were here by then. 

Marie [00:45:27] I, well I, we came in May so this was when were the Winter Olympics. 

Brian [00:45:33] That would have been. 

Marie [00:45:34] Right after. 

Brian [00:45:35] February. March, I think. Winter Olympics. 

Marie [00:45:37] So we left in February. 

Brian [00:45:39] Oh, wow. 

Marie [00:45:39] So I, I did not I was not part of that. Like, I did not. 

Brian [00:45:43] On either side, really. You were just in transition. 

Marie [00:45:45] Were traveling. Were transitioning during that time. 

Brian [00:45:48] Okay. You missed a good game. 

Marie [00:45:51] I watched it. I still talk about that. 

Brian [00:45:53] I still talk about it right away. 

Marie [00:45:55] It was the I watched the movie. 

Brian [00:45:57] Movie, you. 

Marie [00:45:58] Know, with Goldie Hawn's husband. 

Brian [00:46:02] Yeah. Miracle. 

Marie [00:46:03] Miracle. 

Brian [00:46:03] Yeah, that's Disney. 

Marie [00:46:04] Is it Disney? Yeah. Oh, okay. I watched the movie. Okay. For the U.S.. 

Brian [00:46:08] Yeah. So I remember I was playing hockey at that time. I was a big hockey fan, big hockey player at that time. And that was a big deal to beat these professional Russians with are mature college kids. It was just unheard of, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll make it a short digression and stop there. 

Marie [00:46:26] No, I love that movie. I love that whole concept right now that I think about it. It's like it was amazing. Like that was a I can't even imagine what people felt like in because I was already gone. So I don't know what the reaction. As to that. Yeah. 

Brian [00:46:41] Yeah. Because they do play such a big emphasis on that and that the, the Russian army team that they had was just it's on I know the names of all their big players at that time. I mean that saying a lot does. Yeah. Anyway again, short digression. Yes. So I guess if you want to have something else to say about your childhood or growing up in Russia, let's talk about that. If not, talk about why you came over and what that transition was like, what you thought about it when you first heard, and some what surprises you had during that transition. I mean, I can't imagine at that age going to a country I never moved. My parents moved into my house a month or two before I was born. And I didn't leave that house until I went to college, so I knew that was it. I can't imagine go to a country, let alone two, that were so diametrically different. 

Marie [00:47:32] So, you know, I was kind of told, you know, we're leaving. And I was told not to tell anyone that we're leaving for as long as possible. And I was my mother to this day says how surprised she is that I kept my mouth shut. I never told anybody anything, not my friends, nobody. I'm telling you. 

Brian [00:47:47] I was good girl. Good. That's yeah, I do what I'm told. 

Marie [00:47:51] Yep, I do what I'm told. And so she to this day, she's so proud of me for never having said anything. I never let it slip until the last possible moment because you really don't want to tell people. I did leave my favorite aunt behind and were not allowed to communicate. Once you leave, you don't talk to those people and also to any family because you really don't want to get them in trouble either. Right. Because, like, how do you have family who leave like traitors? Right. Were refugees when we left, so were not allowed back. You leave. You're done by forever. That's it. 

Brian [00:48:31] And so was there any question about whether you could leave or was it just like you can leave? But that's it. I mean. 

Marie [00:48:38] So at that time, Brezhnev's wife was a Jew, so she told him, let the Jews leave. So what you would say is, I want to go to Israel because I'm a Jew and all the Jews go to Israel. 

Brian [00:48:48] Okay? 

Marie [00:48:48] So he started letting people out and we said were Jews and we wanted to leave. My mother wanted to leave, so my brother does not go into the army. That was her biggest concern. 

Brian [00:48:59] That was the motivator for the whole. 

Marie [00:49:01] That was a big motivator. Plus, she wanted to leave like she read every book. 

Brian [00:49:06] She. 

Marie [00:49:07] Like. She loved anything outside the Soviet Union, I think. So she was very, you know, educated in that respect. And she wanted to leave and she wanted to have a different life and she wanted to have opportunities and she wanted her kids to have opportunities and not live in that. What you know, I should ask her what drive what drove her to that, like, why she felt that way. But she always felt that way. I think maybe because she lived through World War Two and like hopping off the trains and running into the forest when the Nazis were bombing and all of that kind of stuff. So maybe that, I don't know, and just her childhood drove her to that, but she wanted to leave. I don't think my father was willing, but he, you know, went along and said yes. 

Brian [00:49:51] And did he do you haven't mentioned talking about that. 

Marie [00:49:53] He was actually a corporate attorney. So he was in the party. He was in the Communist Party his whole life, 30 years when we left and which became an issue here a little bit. And then so you say that you want to leave and then there's a process and you have to go apply to leave and everything else. How we got out versus anybody else, I don't know. I don't know who was paid off. I don't know what happened. I don't really know the details. I was young and, you know, I was just told, be quiet until, you know, we're leaving. And then so. 

Brian [00:50:28] From the time they told you to the time you actually left, how what was that come along? 

Marie [00:50:31] Was that I honestly don't know. Maybe a year. 

Brian [00:50:35] Wow. You told. Maybe a little louder. 

Marie [00:50:37] Yeah, maybe a little less. Maybe eight months, something like that. But I knew were leaving because my mom was packing up. She was shipping things over and you know all of that because she didn't know where she was going. So she was sending like, you know, pots and pans and. 

Brian [00:50:51] To. 

Marie [00:50:52] Wear the piano, right? Like, I don't know what ship. 

Brian [00:50:55] I mean, it was me somewhere in the future I don't know. 

Marie [00:50:58] Me somewhere in the future. I don't really know where she was then, I think. I don't know what the process was for that. So there must have been something that was set up, you know, that you could do that. But she was shipping stuff to the United States. So I know that. 

Brian [00:51:12] Some contact here. 

Marie [00:51:13] Something I don't know to whom. 

Brian [00:51:15] You your thoughts at the time, were you excited? Were you nervous? Were you scared? Yes, yes, yes, yes. 

Marie [00:51:22] I think yes to all of it. You know, I you know, I did what I was told, like there wasn't like any, you know, like, okay, that's what we're doing. And so you leave and I have this teddy bear. I still have it. Who was my teddy bear? From the time I was like a year old or something like that. And so by the time it got to be leaving, you know, his so he's filled with straw. That's what they fill teddy bears. He's not very soft. And so his arms had fallen off. His ears had fallen off because they dragged them everywhere since I was one years old. And so my dad would slow everything back on, you know, because he's made out of straw. And when we got to. 

Brian [00:52:02] The. 

Marie [00:52:03] To leave and we got to the border, to the airplane, they're like they thought like stuff was sewn into him, like diamonds or jewelry to go and sell or whatever. And they tried to take my teddy bear, and I. 

Brian [00:52:17] Just had a hissy fit. Like. 

Marie [00:52:20] You're not taking my bear. Like, that was my only. Like, that was my thing. Like this. My bear. Like, it's my bear. 

Brian [00:52:26] Like, you can't. I've got one thing. This is. 

Marie [00:52:28] One thing. Like, can you just. And I was screaming and crying so much that they left it alone because they realized that nobody in the world would be able to take it. Me to put anything in it. 

Brian [00:52:40] Yeah. There's nothing in the bear. 

Marie [00:52:45] You're guaranteed. There was nothing in the bear, let me tell you. 

Brian [00:52:48] Okay. So what was your bear's name? Misha. Misha? 

Marie [00:52:51] Because. Because he's. That's what you called Russian bears. 

Brian [00:52:54] Yeah. 

Marie [00:52:56] So. So all Russian bears are named Misha. Like, they're all like a teddy bears. A Mischka. So his name was Misha. 

Brian [00:53:02] Misha. Same Misha. Pushkar. Misha. 

Marie [00:53:05] And so and I had knitted him like pants and a shirt and everything else by that time. And so you go to you get on a plane, you fly over to Vienna. In Vienna, you are free. So you're done. You're done with the Soviet Union. And at that point, the Israelis come in. So we're there. They gave us a place to stay, some hotel you stay and whatever. We stayed as a family. And then and my grandmother came as well and we stayed there. And then they start talking to you about going to Israel. And this is at this point that you can say, I'm not going to Israel, I don't want to go. 

Brian [00:53:40] That was never the plan. We're not going there. 

Marie [00:53:41] Right. But you couldn't say that until you left. 

Brian [00:53:44] Yeah, sure. I get that. Yeah. Yes. 

Marie [00:53:46] And then so my mother says, I want to go to the United States. So let me tell you, the Israelis were not really sweet about that decision. They brought me to tears. But I remember crying that I wanted to go home because they were just so not nice. I understand them, right? Like they get you out and they want you to go to their country. Plus, everybody's educated, so they like having educated people. But, you know, you say, no, you're free, so you say no. And then you had a choice. So it was Israel. You could go to Australia. Australia was taking immigrants because Australia takes immigrants based on education. So Israel was taking people because our Jewish Australia was taking the educated and United States took by family. So you had to have some family connection and I guess were. 

Brian [00:54:34] Already in the US. 

Marie [00:54:36] That were already in the US. So I guess my father had I didn't know this before, I guess he had like a third or fourth cousin who was here. I don't know how he got here to this day. I don't know how he got here. And so we said we're going to go there. So at that point, Italy was the holding cell for all of the immigrants trying to get into the United States. So you had to go sit in Italy and see if the US will take you. So if you look at now in Italy, in particular in Rome, there's a pretty large Russian population because they got stuck there and they didn't want to go anywhere else. So they ended up staying in Italy, you know. So we got allowed to come here and my mother was like only New York or Chicago, and my cousin was in Chicago. So went to Chicago and then they, they took us in and that's how we started out. And we came through the Jewish United Funds. And my grandmother, who they faked my mother to be Jewish. I don't know how they did that when my grandmother, who was her mother, was not and she came on the Christian United Fund or whatever, like a Christian fund that was funding her. So it was kind of interesting to travel with that. There were some hiccups with the, you know, the two different P systems, right, for you to immigrate. And then, you know, we started out in Chicago and so we had we stayed at those relatives for like a week or whatever. And then my mother rented an apartment and, you know, they started working. My brother delivered pizzas. That was probably our main income for a while. Then she finally got like a drafting job because she was an engineer. You know, they had started learning English and back in the Soviet Union or try to learn English. My father obviously was an attorney, so that was not going to happen. She eventually got a job fixing busses because he used to fix cars in Russia. We had cars, so he would fix them, you know, take them apart and do whatever. So he went to work fixing busses. I even remember the name of the company. They don't exist anymore. But it was Blitz Corp, I think it was Chicago busses, like the street busses that they. And you know, here we are. I mean, I don't know how much more detail you want, like, you know, on the life here. Yeah, well, we're only. We only got so much time here for you, but, yeah, I don't bore these poor people. 

Brian [00:56:52] No. You know, they're going to be just as fascinated as I am. I mean, this is really interesting. So you get here in 80. Yeah. And you're ten. 

Marie [00:57:00] So this takes like from February to May, okay. 

Brian [00:57:03] From the time you go to Vienna and whatnot. 

Marie [00:57:06] For like two weeks, were there. And I will say that the story in Vienna, we got there and I wanted ice cream. So like they would sell us ice cream in the Soviet Union, but you had to stand in line and it wasn't all the time. And I loved ice cream. And so we come to Vienna and there's ice cream stores everywhere. Right? Like, you can just go to a. 

Brian [00:57:25] Nice walk in and get. 

Marie [00:57:26] Some. You can just walk in and get some ice cream. And that was just like that was the most amazing thing. And then, you know, you see all the ice creams with the stupid colors, right? And the kids are always like, we always want the. 

Brian [00:57:36] Stupid company, right? So not so terrible. But like. 

Marie [00:57:41] That was my biggest dream. That was that like, that was amazing. And like, and we didn't have a lot of money, but my mom, you know, she got. 

Brian [00:57:48] Us ice cream and whatever. 

Marie [00:57:49] Once in a while, but that was. 

Brian [00:57:50] The best. That was just like the. 

Marie [00:57:53] The magical moment of being free is to have ice cream whenever you like, to even have the store, like to know that there's a store that always has ice cream and you can walk it if you have money, you can walk in and buy ice cream. That is an amazing feeling. Like I know people here don't think about it because you guys had everything, but when you don't have that and you see that, that is an amazing feeling to know I could get ice cream when I if I have money, I can go and buy ice cream whenever I. 

Brian [00:58:19] Want, right? Yeah. You know, like. Yeah. 

Marie [00:58:22] That's an amazing feeling. 

Brian [00:58:23] It's. Yeah, what's incredible is the, the emotions and that are wrapped up in one little simple thing. Yeah, right. For you, you are able to wrap up everything into ice cream. Ice cream? Because I mean, at your age, right? If you would have been older or younger, it might have been something else. Right. But a ten year old understands ice cream and there's long lines and it's hard to get and it's only a once in a while. And now it's just there are three of them on the street. On this street, there's three ice cream. You can walk into any one of them. You'll walk into all three. Yeah. And yeah. So it's interesting that perspective of that ten year old. Right. Do you remember anything about the gelato from Italy? 

Marie [00:59:07] I don't even know if I had gelato, okay, to be honest with you. But by that point, it was not. 

Brian [00:59:12] As okay, like, yeah. 

Marie [00:59:14] Exotic anymore. But when were in Vienna, it was just an amazing I just remember I remember that in my head. I don't remember everything, but I remember that in my head I remember my mother, you know, her goal was always the arts and everything else. I remember she got us tickets to go to the Vienna Opera, right? Because that's like the thing you do. Vienna Opera was always has always had a great reputation. Yeah. And we got the standing tickets. You didn't have seats, you had to stand on the top in the back and whatever. And were all supposed to go and we all went. 

Brian [00:59:46] In the two weeks you were there, you saw the in the two. 

Marie [00:59:48] Like, that's what she spent money on. 

Brian [00:59:49] Was that not the ice cream? No, but. But you're here, right? This is world renowned. You're here. This is what you do. 

Marie [00:59:56] This is what you. 

Brian [00:59:57] Do, right? Yeah. 

Marie [00:59:59] That was always her goal. That was always her goal is to see all these different places, the world renowned that everything she read about, she wanted to see. 

Brian [01:00:07] Yeah. Yeah. So when you were in Soviet Union, were you or I guess you were in Russia, where were you in this? In this in a big city? Were you the country you were? 

Marie [01:00:18] Yes, I was in Leningrad. Okay. So now it is Saint Petersburg. 

Brian [01:00:22] Okay. 

Marie [01:00:23] Back to Saint Petersburg? I guess so. Were in a major city. Yes. Okay. 

Brian [01:00:26] So moving to Chicago wasn't like a big deal. 

Marie [01:00:29] It was not at all. 

Brian [01:00:30] Yeah, it was very similar. Do you remember the differences that you caught at the time? 

Marie [01:00:37] So in when we lived in Leningrad, we lived in the city like on the outskirts, not like center, center, but like but still in the city. When we came to Chicago, we lived in the city and I was fine with that. And I went to school and I walked to school just like there. It was perfectly fine. And then we moved to the suburbs. 

Brian [01:00:56] Okay. 

Marie [01:00:56] I sat there in our new house. My mother saved, like saved and saved her biggest thing, right? Like the white picket fence. She got out, so we bought a townhouse and I sat there when they went to the grocery store by the like the, the back in the kitchen that was by the back door. And I was literally in tears because it was so quiet in the suburbs like. And the only noise was the cars passing by on the street. 

Brian [01:01:23] Tears in that way, or scared or. 

Marie [01:01:25] Sad because I was like, it's so quiet. Like, this is like quiet. Yeah, I want city life. Like, I wanted that like people around and hustle, bustle kind of thing. 

Brian [01:01:35] Yeah. 

Marie [01:01:36] Yeah. And we lived in Rogers Park, which is a. It's not center of Chicago, but it's a city, you know, and we could walk to the lake. And I walked to school and now were like in this suburb, you know, it was just and then another funny thing I did do, because I'm a proper, proper little town. So my mom at that time was already working. She had actually riding her bike to work because we didn't have a car for her. And so we moved. It's I think it was spring time. And so she goes to work or whatever. And it's Monday. Like we moved on out of Nowhere Day and then, you know, weekend, Monday and Monday, I walk over to the school by myself and say. 

Brian [01:02:20] Hi. 

Marie [01:02:20] I'm here. I'm supposed to go to school, sign the. 

Brian [01:02:24] Book. 

Marie [01:02:25] And the you know, the secretaries look at me like what? And I'm like, Well, I'm supposed to go to school. I'm a kid, so sign me up for school. I'm supposed to go to school. And they're like, Where are your parents? Are like, Well, my mom works. What are they working like? They can't come and, you know, so she's at work already and she's like, okay, when does she go to work? So I told her, I don't remember what it was. So they came in early so that my mom can come and just her me for school. 

Brian [01:02:52] They were like, You do like I'm a kid. I'm supposed to go to school. But it's the law, right? Like I it. Yeah. So you spoke pretty good English fairly quickly. And you're walking to school and talking to people and say, sign me up. I mean, that's pretty good confidence. 

Marie [01:03:08] So that was like two years after being here for two. Okay, so I thought. 

Brian [01:03:12] You didn't go to school for the first two years? I did go to school. You did Chicago, but you moved after. You were. 

Marie [01:03:17] Moved after. Okay. I went and signed myself up for school. 

Brian [01:03:20] Gotcha. Okay. 

Marie [01:03:21] Yeah, I want to. Yes, I'll just like there was a bunch of Russian speaking kids there where we lived in Rogers Park, and then so we all went to school kind of together. So they had an ESL class just for the Russian kids. And then and then we would go to school with the regular kids for everything else. 

Brian [01:03:38] Did you feel you had any particular bond or anything in common with other ESL kids, or were they just other kids? 

Marie [01:03:45] And all my best friends still my best friend, we met in that ESL class. 

Brian [01:03:49] So there is something about that shared experience of. 

Marie [01:03:51] Oh yeah, yeah. When you meet like when immigrants meet each other, it's like a it's almost like a knowing glance, like, yeah, yeah, I gotcha. Like, I know what you. 

Brian [01:04:00] I know, yeah, I get it, you know. Yeah. 

Marie [01:04:03] And then it's like these Americans, but it's it. I mean, we feel American. I feel American. My whole goal, every ever since I came was to be American. And I didn't get made fun of and called commie when I came. Right. And so my biggest goal all the time and I think that ties into like not telling anybody anything is that I wanted to be Americans and nobody calls me commie and people accept me, you know? 

Brian [01:04:26] What did that mean to you when people called you that? 

Marie [01:04:28] I was like, How can I be a commie? I'm here. 

Brian [01:04:31] Yeah, but I'm not. Yeah, I, I'm not sure. 

Marie [01:04:36] But you can't like, I didn't realize because kid, you know, as a kid you go, I'm not and you don't speak English, so you figure out how to say I'm not. Like I had to literally go to people and say, How do you say this? 

Brian [01:04:46] Like, Yeah. 

Marie [01:04:47] You know? And then, but there were and I will say, I mean, this is probably sounds so strange, but we did not have any black people when I was growing up. I had never been with any I had seen on TV. And, you know, but I had and I read about all different kinds of people and we had lots of posters around because there were all these different nationalities that were in the Soviet Union. So it was not like a, you know, but I had seen some of the other ones. Like we had some kids who were from different some, some of the stances they call are likely whatever they had come to school that moved into the city or whatever. But I had never, ever seen like and interacted with black people. And then I came to school and they were probably the most awesome kids ever who came up to me and tried to befriend me. And I don't speak English, right? And I'm standing there just staring at them because I have never like I'm like, I've never encountered that, right? Like I've never talked to black children before ever in my life. And I, I'm just fast and I'm just standing like looking at them, like, because I've read about you in books. Like, I was never like to me it was a, it's not like a racist thing. It was just like a. 

Brian [01:06:04] New, like. 

Marie [01:06:04] Intriguing new like, wow, this is so cool. Like, all these different, you know? And then one of the Russian kids finally came up to me and said, Don't stare like about symbols there. But I was like, I couldn't understand what they're saying to me. So I'm just standing there staring at them because I don't understand them. They're so exotic to me because I've never really had this kind of interaction, you know, as we're immigrating. Yes, there were people, but like I never talked to them. Right. And now I'm in the situation by myself standing there. They're trying to tell me something. And I'm just fascinated by just. Everything about them. And that was like kind of like I think back to that experience. Like, that was just so strange to me. And I think people here would be like, Oh, you were raised this way or that way. It was a fascination. Like, it was just amazing to me. Yeah. You know, to have never had encountered that. I don't know. People here, I don't think. 

Brian [01:07:02] Really understand. 

Marie [01:07:04] That. Like, how can you grow up like that? 

Brian [01:07:05] But yeah, yeah, yeah. Was there anything in particular growing up where you finally felt like you were an American, or did you kind of feel that on day one and you were just going to fake it till you make it? Or you kind of already felt like you belong here? Because while I am here, I'm not a commie because I'm not there anymore. I'm an American. I'm here now. Or was there any part that made you feel like, okay, no, this is this is a turning point. 

Marie [01:07:29] I don't think I've ever felt like I belong. I actually don't know where I belong. 

Brian [01:07:33] That breaks my heart. 

Marie [01:07:34] But it's not like that. Like it's not in a negative way. It's kind of like I'm not 100% this way and I don't necessarily 100% share the American upbringing. Right, because I didn't have that totally right. So I understand a lot of it. I've experienced some of it, but I don't have 100% of that and I don't have them either. Like it's kind of like a mid limbo, but do I? So like if anybody asks, I am American and I love America. It's my country. 

Brian [01:08:05] Yeah, I do. 

Marie [01:08:06] Belong here, but I don't know if I feel like I belong in any like that. I am like, yeah, this is like a totally. These are my people. Yes. But I don't know if I internalized that. And I've thought about that for a long time over the years, like because I, I do have like we have our traditions that aren't American and they're like, we do these things. And then Americans is like, what you do, what you eat, what you do, what I, New York is like, Yeah, this is what we do. And it's totally accepted and it's perfectly fine. But I don't know if it's 100% being American, right? You're an immigrant. An American immigrant. Maybe that's what I associate with. So it's not like don't feel like it's heartbreaking that I don't think people accept me or don't. I think people accept that it's just there's a group of us that are similar in how we do. 

Brian [01:08:58] Things, right. Yeah. 

Marie [01:09:00] So I, I belong to that. I don't know if I fit in everywhere. 

Brian [01:09:04] I'm, I have to think about that a little bit because I mean, my, my first, my first emotion is heartbreaking because I hate for someone to not feel like they belong, especially someplace they belong for so long, and they still feel like a visitor. But, you know, I still or that they're here, but only like physically or mostly here. And I and I get it, you know, my and maybe that's just the refugee aspect that we'll never overcome. I mean, I'm both so how could I ever fit in both at the same time? I can only physically be in one at the time. And if you went back to Russia, it would be you wouldn't fit in there either right now, right? Not at all. Right. 

Marie [01:09:46] Never, ever. And I've been back. I've been to Ukraine and I felt odd and like I don't belong there either, for sure. I do not belong back there. And I think, you know, when the war started, in my mind, I'm like, well, I mean, not necessarily that would happen again, but you just, you know, again, I'm afraid I have these like you think about things like this. And I was thinking, you know, the Japanese during World War two, you know, who knows what the hell Putin is going to pull, right. And how people are going to react to anything that's Russian related. And so I was like, okay, do we have to immigrate again? Like, how are they? How am I going to be treated here? Do I am I going to have to leave? And I don't have this like, oh my God, I'm going to leave my home. It's like, all. 

Brian [01:10:32] Right, let's go pick it up. Let's go. Yeah. 

Marie [01:10:35] So I think, like, if you're asking me that, like, I could pack up and go, do I want to know I love this country. Do I want to maybe go live in Europe? My brother lives in Europe like sure, I could. 

Brian [01:10:47] See he got ice cream. And so yeah. 

Marie [01:10:49] Gelato, you know, I live in Italy. 

Brian [01:10:51] But. 

Marie [01:10:52] I mean, I would leave, you know, and I'm not afraid to leave. I think that's the. So do I feel like I belong? I do and I don't. Right. Like I because I have this like I could always leave and I'm done. So I know what it feels like. 

Brian [01:11:07] So I've lived in Japan for a couple of years. I've lived in several other states back east. I grew up in Salt Lake. I live close to Salt Lake right now. Most of my family's here. I my roots are deep, deep, deep. And there are a lot of aspects of that I really like. And I just think, well, what if all this were all just trimmed off to the point where you could just move the tree anywhere you want? I'm like, Well, that's not to be. I mean, I'm just kind of feel on that. It's like, No, I'm comfortable here, there. As long as I get water wherever I go, we're good. You know, I can need sunshine and water. I'll take care of the. You know. Yeah. And I'm like, I think I would maybe that I missed something that I wouldn't be as big of a deal if it actually happened. 

Marie [01:11:46] But so and maybe the fact that you have these roots that go back so long and I don't have the roots that go back so long I don't like I can't go back to my family because I don't remember them. 

Brian [01:11:59] Yeah. Right. 

Marie [01:12:00] So whatever is there, weren't allowed to talk to them for a good, you know, until the wall fell. So, like, you know, ten years by that time, you know, ten years of to a ten year old, like that's a lifetime. 

Brian [01:12:09] Yeah. 

Marie [01:12:10] And so and you can't really, you know, like how do you, you know, I mean, my mom knew where they were, but like, I don't know where they are. Like, I, you know, I would have you have to recreate all that and travel and do all of that. And I had no interest in that. And so I think that when you have those roots, you kind of say, well, I don't want to lose all of that. I mean, I have my best friend here. I have some family here. But like I said, my brother lives in Europe and like, we're all in different places. I could go anywhere. Yeah, I don't have that. I think once you immigrate, you may not have an attachment to any place particularly. 

Brian [01:12:44] Yeah, I think that goes. 

Marie [01:12:46] Know you have some of that too. I mean, you left the church, right? And you left all of that. 

Brian [01:12:50] Yeah. And that's definitely a route that I've severed. Right. And that, that, that's been really, really hard. And yet I'm still here surrounded by my same family in the same neighborhood. I can't imagine cutting all of those and leaving, you know, but just because I haven't had to. Do your kids feel fully rooted if they left Chicago, or would that be a big deal for them or the U.S.? 

Marie [01:13:11] My youngest daughter now went to school in Florida, and she and I were coming back. And we can all relate to that because like Chicago weather in Florida. 

Brian [01:13:21] In the winter, in Chicago, it looks pretty nice. Pretty nice. 

Marie [01:13:26] So I feel and I, I purposefully made sure that my kids went away to school, particularly out of Illinois, because I and I shouldn't I'm an education and I should support my state. But we're not a great financial state, you know? And so I was like, go to school somewhere else. That may have better. So even if you go to a state school, a better supported school than it is in Illinois, mostly like we didn't have a budget for a while. So I was always like, go out of Illinois, go somewhere not too far. Like, places I can go like that. I'm not a like so, so far away, but, you know, I'll go somewhere else. So my oldest daughter went to Ohio. My youngest one is in Florida right now. I, I think it depends on them how, but I think we all have this like we can go anywhere we want, like we're not so attached. 

Brian [01:14:16] Do you think they would pack up and move to another country as easily as or is that or fairly close to that or I think argument with that. 

Marie [01:14:23] I mean, my like I said, my younger daughter particular I think she would. 

Brian [01:14:26] Go in a minute but you know, yeah, she. 

Marie [01:14:29] Goes should want to live someplace else and experience another culture and like she's talked about like going to Spain and living there and working there and doing whatever. So I don't know if she still feels this way, but those are the conversations we've had, you know, like, you can go, my kids have traveled since they were babies because that was like a thing in our family. Like to go, obviously, if my brother's not around. So I like to go travel, do things so they are not I don't think they're necessarily my older daughter I think would prefer to be in Chicago. She lives Chicago. But if other opportunities come up. 

Brian [01:15:06] You go, yeah. Okay. What is the most what is the most Soviet like thing about you and what is the most American like thing about you? Is there something that really rings a bell for either of those? 

Marie [01:15:17] So our Soviet thing is probably some of the. 

Brian [01:15:21] Food, right? 

Marie [01:15:22] And some of it I know how to cook and some of it I don't. And then. 

Brian [01:15:26] Like what? Food. What? 

Marie [01:15:27] Well, you know, we love our beets. 

Brian [01:15:29] Okay? 

Marie [01:15:31] In all different kinds of varieties. We love our the Russian style or actually I make the Ukrainian style I don't know how to make my mother makes a Russian style potato salad. That's always like a thing we like, you know, certain cold cuts, mostly Italian, I think. And then so what you guys call head cheese or whatever, like, that's a thing for us, right? Okay. We like to eat that. And caviar is like a big thing, right? Okay, girl, kind of with that New Year's is our big holiday. So because religion was not allowed, right? It's communism. So you don't have religion. We didn't have Christmas, but I think it probably evolved from Christmas or not being allowed to have Christmas. We would do the gifts on New Year's. New Year's is a big holiday like we do year, which is awesome here because I go after Christmas shopping for all the gifts. Yeah. 

Brian [01:16:27] Oh, yeah. Wait, wait. One day everything is 90% off. 

Marie [01:16:31] Exactly. So you may not get everything you want, but, like, it's pretty good. And so that's like our big holiday. My kids like and they celebrate that like we are that's our holiday. We celebrate that and they espouse that. And so throwing in some Russian words, you know, is always kind of the slangy kind of thing. What makes me the most American, I think, I swear, like a trucker. 

Brian [01:17:03] And I heard Washington would be so proud. 

Marie [01:17:07] Yes, my. I learn how to swear because I needed to protect myself from junior high. You know, kids were still making fun and not necessarily that I was a commie by that point. But, you know, I'm an immigrant. You know what I wear, you know, whatever. And so I don't speak English properly, whatever it was. And so I learn how to swear to just shut it down before it ever started. And so I think that's probably the most what I would consider American thing about me. I watch a lot of movies. I don't know if that's America. What's an American thing to be like? There's so many. 

Brian [01:17:42] Different people. 

Marie [01:17:42] Here. What's an American thing to be? 

Brian [01:17:44] Right. 

Marie [01:17:45] Right. Like, you know. 

Brian [01:17:48] So many. 

Marie [01:17:49] Different. I mean, I like some of it. I mean, I don't love barbecue sauce, but that's not barbecue necessarily, right? Depends on where you come. And this country is so huge. There's so many different types of people, you know, like. So I think that, you know, I'm not sure that like what is being American. 

Brian [01:18:07] I don't know. That's why I was Asking you to see what that triggered in your mind. 

Marie [01:18:11] I don't think there's anything. 

Brian [01:18:13] What? You're right, Erica. There are different things for different people. I mean, one of the obvious ones is baseball. Right. But I honestly think that maybe football is more American than baseball. And I'm not a big baseball fan I played growing up, but I'm definitely hockey player and lacrosse, so those are minor. 

Marie [01:18:29] But hockey to me is like that's not necessarily that's a that's a sport. But everybody, you know, like that's my roots. 

Brian [01:18:36] It's yeah. 

Marie [01:18:37] Right. Common among a lot of countries. Yeah. I was a soccer mom since my daughter was three years old and she's graduated college by now. 

Brian [01:18:44] So like, yeah, you can't say the soccer's America. I mean, look at Latin America. That's football, right? Right. Americans can't even play the sport. 

Marie [01:18:52] So I watch the Super Bowl. I you know, I was a fan of the Ditka Bears, but like a Fairweather fan kind of thing. And, you know, I watch the Superbowl for the commercial because I teach marketing, so I need to watch the commercials come. All right. Like I, you know, and I hope that they play a good game because it's boring. Otherwise, I do know how the game is played. I don't know, maybe all the nuances, but I know how football is played. So. But does that make me American? 

Brian [01:19:20] I don't know. I guess I was curious to what you thought made you American because. Yeah, that's a good question to ask it back, cause I'm not sure how I'd answer. And I've lived, you know, right in here for a long time. So. Yeah. Okay, so I think I'm out of questions. Is there anything else that you want to talk about? What's on your mind? What the thing, anything we missed? 

Marie [01:19:39] I think one of the things you had talked about, but you and I had talked about is and you mentioned that there's a lot of deconstructing of your past religious ties. Yeah. And I just want to say and you and I talked about this before, the mind control that the Soviets use and still are, you know, Putin and all of that. I consider that the Soviet way is the same as the mind control that some of the religions use to control people. And I was a huge fan of Leah Remini's Scientology show and I would watch it and I literally texted and I don't Twitter usually that much, but I actually sent a tweet saying to at her, right, like this is the Soviet Union. Like everything that she talked about, all the things that had happened was that and I think to continue down that path is, you know, we do have a lot of our young people, which is typical in the United States. The young are much more liberal. The older people, as you grow older, you become more conservative and set in your ways and whatever else. So it's a typical generational kind of growth that happens. 

Brian [01:21:00] Completely flipped for me. But I agree that's typical. 

Marie [01:21:03] Yeah, The average the statistically typical. Right. And I think that, you know, some of this love of communism and socialism that happens in this country, I probably do not espouse as much because I lived it. And I just want to say, you know, that from coming from that there is no perfect communism and people are not altruistic and that we as a society have a hard time living in this. And like, we're all friends and we all will do what's best for everybody. I don't think people are actually like that. And what you end up with is dictators and fear and forced upon your will, duties that you may not want to do for the best of the society that you might be in. And I want people to remember that because with communism and doing what society wants, that's best for as many people as possible. Comes the taking away of individualism, not that 100% individualism is what is best either. But consider that when you think about all of the programs and the direction that you might want to take this country, you don't want it to end up like the Soviet Union because that is not communism that Karl Marx came up with. Really. And it's the it's just control. All of this is government control. Having these systems, the political systems that people want, like the socialist stuff and whatever. We have a lot of socialist things here. Social Security, some of the health care that is provided. There's lots of social programs, welfare, all of that. So think about how much you want because it takes away some freedoms as well. And are you willing to give away those freedoms? And some people will say yes, and that's fine. And some people will say no. And we have to be considerate of both of that. And I and I think where you know, this, you know, free this and free that comes at a cost. It's not free. Nothing is ever free. And I want people to kind of realize that, like, the Soviet Union was supposed to be this glorious place where everybody is equal. Well, weren't equal. Nobody was treated equally. You still have all of that. Can we reach that kind of utopia? I don't know. In any lifetime. I don't know if people can do that now. And so let's be realistic. That's all I'm asking, because the this like love of the communist concept in reality does not work. And I don't think the Chinese is as happy as they pretend to because they're told to be happy. Right. You show this fakeness, right? Like with the fear. This is why I'm now really annoyed with the with China and the Olympics and I'm annoyed with the government just so everybody knows. I don't hate the Chinese people, but I hate their government just like I hate the ex-Soviet government. And what Russia does, you know, plucking athletes out of their families and making them perform and then threatening them if they do not and they do not do well, not only with their lives, but their family lives. That is not what sports is supposed to be like. And that bothers me, right? Like that bothers me. And what else do they do? People don't realize that there's so much going on behind the scenes. Olympics is not the only thing. That's just an example. 

Brian [01:24:38] No, but you said that's a form of warfare. 

Marie [01:24:40] It is a form of warfare. 

Brian [01:24:41] We're showing how great we are to the world. 

Marie [01:24:44] Your strength. 

Brian [01:24:44] We're going to make sure we have the strongest, best, fastest people there. Right. Or we look bad and we can look bad. 

Marie [01:24:51] And it's that the price of the people. It's the price of that person. It's the price of that person's family. And here, yes, you do have to, you know, work at it and whatever. But and there is, you know, some underhanded, you know, payoffs and whatever else, I'm sure, to get into some of the Olympic things I've seen some with soccer. But it's still kind of, you know, we just have this like, opportunity, like everybody kind of has an opportunity. You hear those stories of the athletes that, you know, they work really, really hard and they get to that point. Are they pushed into it? I don't I feel like they choose to do it. Like my daughter played soccer forever and we took her to soccer and she liked it when she was three. And we're like, Do you want to keep going? Do you want to keep going? And she kept going and kept going. Keep going. And, you know, after a certain point, I'm like, Well, if you're going to sign up, you're going to have to sign up for a year. Like it's not a, you know, like you're going to have to do this for a year and another year, whatever you want to do. But if you're going to choose this, we're paying for a year. So you need to. 

Brian [01:25:51] Right? 

Marie [01:25:51] You can't quit after 5 minutes. 

Brian [01:25:53] You're committing to your team for the year. 

Marie [01:25:55] You're committing for the team. You're committing to, you know, to do this. So there is some, you know, potentially forced commitment if you're like really good. But we can always stop, right? 

Brian [01:26:04] That's good. 

Marie [01:26:05] You know, that's kind of my thing. Like the price is really high for having a lot of social programs. And you cannot compare Sweden or Denmark or, you know, the Netherlands or Germany. Even Germany is the size of Texas. Sweden is like, what? Maybe Illinois? I don't know. Like how many people do they have? They're homogenous. I mean, they're kind of varying now, but they're generally homogenous society of everybody kind of being very similar, same background roots. An understanding of the. Of their of their culture. Of course, they're going to act in a certain way because everybody's kind of familiar and they like themselves and their society. We don't have that in the United States. So you need to, you know, state our states are kind of like that. You know, so you have to think about that. 

Brian [01:26:57] Thank you for that. By the way, you mentioned that in the Soviet Union, they have no religion. How much of that do you think is a part of them being the only source of control where you mentioned that a lot of the religions use the same type of control and if you have no religions and only one country, then we have all the control, right? The second you let in a religion, you essentially have another country. 

Marie [01:27:20] And you have somebody else that people would listen to. Right. 

Brian [01:27:23] So you're listening to Miles and can do. Right. Exactly. 

Marie [01:27:25] Exactly. And so if you want to control people taking away their faith, whatever that may be, is a way to tell them that these are the only goals and you don't have anything else but the tactics that I think some religions, I mean, a lot of them use to control, to make sure that you behave in a certain manner. Right. It's all about how you behave. Right. And it's all for the common good. Everybody's towards the common good. But when you look particularly at the more extreme religions, you know, Scientology, I mean, to me, they're a cult, you know. And so when you're looking at more like of the cult type religions that have all these rules and rules, it's the same thing. And to, you know, in Scientology, to report on your neighbors, like when you see somebody doing something bad, you report. That's what we lived with. Like you have you know, some people will say what you did badly and to move up right and to be considered better and whatever. And, you know, all of the abuse comes with that. And I think that so like you said, it's kind of odd, right, to think that ironic like you take all the religion away, but then you behave just like all the religions. 

Brian [01:28:39] Yeah, well, that's the playbook, right? I mean, that's the playbook. That's. 

Marie [01:28:43] How it. 

Brian [01:28:43] Works. Have you read the book, Sapiens? 

Marie [01:28:45] I haven't. I started. I have not finished it. 

Brian [01:28:49] Okay. It's interesting because to move out of any society of more than 120 ish people, they say you have to have a greater good that holds everybody together. Right. And that's where religion and different theologies and governments kind of come into play is you really can't get beyond a hundred people living together in harmony without something greater than the common good. You need to define what the common good is and almost enforce people to get on board with that or so. Yeah. 

Marie [01:29:19] Yeah. Yeah. I need to finish reading that book. I it's that I listened to the podcast. He was on a Freakonomics podcast and I listened to him talk and I was just like, I need to read your books. 

Brian [01:29:28] Yeah, I highly recommend the book. Okay, um, two other things, and I'll probably cut this part off unless we get into a side note. That's interesting. I'll keep it in. But there's a documentary series called The Price of Gold or the Cost of Gold. Have you heard that? I have not. It talks about it's a bunch of Olympic athletes talking us athletes that are talking about the price of becoming gold medalists in the U.S.. Yeah. And it's not much better than what you were saying happened to the Russian athletes and the Chinese athletes. It's yeah, you can do what you want. However, there's really only one way through to this and it's not comfortable. It's not good. But they interviewed a lot of people, a lot of them you'll know almost everybody on here, you're very familiar with them. If you watch the Olympics and they talk about what a bad deal it has been for them and we need to do better. Right. 

Marie [01:30:19] But I think and I don't know, I might be wrong, but I feel like you have a choice. 

Brian [01:30:24] To finding debt. And they did have a choice. They still have a choice. 

Marie [01:30:28] You still have at least a choice. Like it's a bad that may not be the best option, but you have a choice to follow that option or not. 

Brian [01:30:35] Yeah, you could get. 

Marie [01:30:36] You can get out. I mean, you lose the Olympic stuff, but you can get out. I feel that like in China and because I watch that diver, I don't remember her name, but she was like a Lancome model and all of that. She wanted to not compete anymore and they needed her to compete. And all of a sudden she kind of disappeared for a while and then she was competing. And I'm thinking that they probably threatened her family and said because she was already out of China, she was, you know, traveling all over the world. She was very popular in China and whatever. And she was a model and doing everything else. And then all of a sudden she's back and she said She's retired and now she's back competing. I'm like, What did they do to you? 

Brian [01:31:17] What did they do to you? And you know the answer to that question, right? You know how that game is played. Yes. Yeah. You don't even need to ask because you kind of already know. And, you know, she can't answer it anyway. Oh, yeah. 

Marie [01:31:27] She was like, oh, I wanted to come back. 

Brian [01:31:29] Yeah, I just needed some time away. And she reads the prepared statement here, right? Yeah. Mm hmm. 

Marie [01:31:33] That's. And that bothers me so much that. Bothers me so much that makes me like I don't want to I don't want to watch the Chinese compete because that is unfair to but this is how you treat your people. It should be like your true strength, right? That's what the Olympics should be. 

Brian [01:31:54] But, you know, I enjoy you. 

Marie [01:31:55] Know, I live in a fantasy world. 

Brian [01:31:57] No, but I think this kind of comes back to what does it mean to be an American is you do what you want. And again, I think we built a system here and support a system that has some negativity and there are a lot of capitalistic issues with it. But entrepreneurship, you want to start a company? Go start a company? Yeah. Protect yourself. Make it a corporation. If it fails, the corporation fails. You move on. Yeah. I mean, I think that's it's not unique to the United States, but I mean, it says it's why we tell it so much the Steve Jobs and that the great entrepreneurs that just like someone that has the same opportunity as everybody else, they saw something no one else did. And they have the determination to make it happen. And that can happen to you. Yeah. 

Marie [01:32:42] And you have a lot of, you know, the immigrants who come typically face kind of the ceilings of not being able to move and move through the corporate ladders to achieve. So they start on their own and they do their own thing. And so you have those opportunities. And I know some people say, well, that's because you're this, that or the other, but I think, you know, you and not everybody gets those opportunity and I understand that. But there's just more opportunity here than anywhere else in the world. Yeah, that's what I think that. 

Brian [01:33:16] Yeah, that's one that's kind of what, what we, what it means to be an American. I think that's probably the closest thing for me to. Yeah. Okay. So another documentary, The Donut King. 

Marie [01:33:26] I have not seen that either. 

Brian [01:33:27] It is about a refugee. I can't remember. Oh, he's from Cambodia. Came over in the seventies, went to work for a donut shop. He wanted a job. He got here, says, give me a job. I'll take anything I need to provide for my family. Right. Lived in L.A., went to work for a donut shop, and he's like, I can do this. And they sent him to management school. So he opened one of the franchises for him and he was doing things that the Food and Drug Administration wouldn't recommend, but it saved him money. And they're like, You can't do that. You're like, I'll start my own donut shop. More refugees came over from in Cambodia and he would take them under his wing and show them how to open a donut shop. All of whatever you want. He helps him get a fire. To this day, something like 90% of all independent donut shops in the U.S. are run by someone from Cambodia. Well, his influence just spread, and it was just amazing that he's like, I can do this and I can show you how to do it and show you how to do it, and I can show up. So, yeah, it's a crazy documentary called The Donut King. I recommend that. 

Marie [01:34:23] And to me, that's like that would be the best kind of work. And I don't know if you'd call it socialism or whatever it is, what it is about, but like, that would be like if we all could do that. 

Brian [01:34:37] Yes, right. 

Marie [01:34:38] That's so it's self-interest. But your self-interest is like, okay, if I'm better off and I can teach somebody else to better off, then we're better off together. 

Brian [01:34:47] Yes. And I can make. Yeah, exactly. 

Marie [01:34:49] You know, like that's the I wish we had more of that. 

Brian [01:34:54] Yeah. Well and it can be taken advantage of like any system, right? 

Marie [01:34:57] Absolutely. 

Brian [01:34:58] But the closer you get to that, it does have some of the positives of socialism that you want of taking care of others. Yeah. They can make money and you can make money. Let's do it together. Let's do it together and let's spread it to as many people as that. Want to do it. Yeah, yeah. I love that. So you mentioned Scientology and Leah Remini. Yes. Season two Episode three Liz I interviewed her on my podcast like a month ago. Oh, wow. You might want to talk with her because we had the same conversation and it's awesome and hear her story and she's pretty vocal about Scientology and TikTok. And she was a golden child of Scientology. Her and her brother were poster children for Scientology growing up. Her brother, unfortunately, committed suicide on Ron Hubbard's birthday, which is a big celebration. No coincidence there. She got out of Scientology and been convincing people to not join and whatever, and her mom says, Your kids are going to be Scientologists whether you want them to be or not. That's just awful. It's just I mean, the story behind that. But yeah, if you look at the list, Leah Remini is series Season two Episode three I interviewed Liz as well. 

Marie [01:36:04] Her brother, the one with who jumped off the. 

Brian [01:36:06] Tower. Mitt Yeah, yeah. And we didn't touch about anything. I purposely when I talked with her, I didn't want to talk about anything that they mentioned in her career in that series. Right. Wanted to talk about other things. So it's completely different. But yeah, it's she and I have a lot in common. Were comparing Mormonism with Scientology and we're like, Yeah, I get that, I get that. And again, we have commonality like you do with other refugees, right? Where you can just in our room and it's like we're from different countries. We came here in different decades. But I get you. I get it. Yeah. Yeah. And they know that you get. It's like, yeah, and that's hard to share if you haven't been through that. 

Marie [01:36:41] And I think kind of I mean, I don't pretend to know exactly, but after watching the Scientology thing and seeing all the commonalities, I get you guys and I understand to some degree and I think it's so brave, like, I know you talk about it like, oh, it's just, you know, whatever. But like, I think it's so brave and so immigrant, like, for you to have left. You left kind of like, I love you. And you were like, I was not I wasn't given a choice, right? My family left. We left all together. But you figured it out and you left and you said, I'm not doing this right. Like just like my mother said, we need to leave. This is not how life is supposed to be. And just like the immigrants who leave wherever they are, particularly the refugees, and say, I cannot live like this is not life, this there's better and I can do better somewhere else. You did the same thing. Like if I feel that I can understand a little better, I don't understand all of it. But like some of what you went through there means you've had that same experience. And so you say like, I lived in the same town and all of that, but you did have a little bit of that immigrant like I left that everything I knew behind because there's better. 

Brian [01:38:00] Thank you for saying. I think there's a lot of similarities with that. I think so, too, as I think with a lot of these conversations, they're just it's a human experience. Right. And you recognize it in someone else that has kind of gone through the same thing. I don't know exactly what it is you recognize, but when we met, that's kind of why I wanted to have you on the show to talk about your background, because I don't know what that was like. The part that I'm struggling with right now is I left, but I still live in the same neighborhood. 

Marie [01:38:27] I know. I'm like, I think that's amazingly brave. 

Brian [01:38:31] I don't know if it's brave or stupid or if there's something I can do about it, but. 

Marie [01:38:34] Well, but your like you said to me, like, you have people who now just kind of like wave at you from afar, don't even talk to people who are your friends and you know that. So like, we laughed and I could not talk to my family anymore because if we talked to them, they would get in trouble. And probably those people feel like, Well, I don't want to get in trouble. Then you're no different and you go away. Kind of think it's the same like that. It's the same like not me one. And they may want to have talk, they may want to talk to you and they miss you. And my family might have missed us, but like you're done. Like you're not allowed. This is you. 

Brian [01:39:13] Can't take the risk. You can't pick up the you can't. Right. You can't put each other in danger by doing that. Right. 

Marie [01:39:19] Exactly. And so and I feel like that's what you guys go through when you leave that and Scientology particularly. Right. Like from what I've seen, it feels like they get harassed and for leaving and doing all of that stuff and being told your children are going to be Scientologists. 

Brian [01:39:36] Like, yeah, that's. 

Marie [01:39:38] You know, and you live in that kind of fear, which is horrible that exists here. But I totally relate to that. 

Brian [01:39:44] Yeah, and you're right, the LDS religion, the Mormon religion doesn't quite get to that extreme. But Liz lives in a very small community. Everybody in that community knows them and knows what they drive. And she says if you see cars that you don't recognize, call us. Right? Like, wow, that is just that's insane. I can't imagine that's next level. I mean, that's just. 

Marie [01:40:06] But that's how life would be like in the Soviet Union. 

Brian [01:40:09] Yeah. 

Marie [01:40:09] Because you don't know who's watching you and it could be your neighbor and they would report on you and do what you know. And that's the same thing. It's the same say. That's why I was when I watched that. When I watched that, I was it was I was like, oh my God, it's like so even the same tactics. And I'm like, it's all mind control. It's just all controlling people for whatever their purposes. 

Brian [01:40:32] Right. And how it's just a visit to decay. Decades later, you can bring out a shirt with a certain color and immediately have all of it come back that immediately. That's some power. It's a shirt. A lot of it's a shirt. It's just a shirt. 

Marie [01:40:47] I think that's how a lot of people around here felt when I was like, I don't want to wear this. I'm like, Why is it red? Like, pick any other. Our school colors are blue, like pink. Anything, any other color? Like, why can't you guys understand what I'm telling you? And they're like, it's just a shirt. Like, who cares? Yeah, yeah. It's amazing. The trigger, the trigger. And like I said, I didn't even realize. 

Brian [01:41:07] Yeah. 

Marie [01:41:08] I thought I was done with that. Like, who cares? I was the same way. Like, who cares? It's just a shirt. You can do it. Nope. 

Brian [01:41:14] Nope. Can't get bedazzle. Maybe that's the solution to the cults than mind control. But Dazzler. 

Marie [01:41:24] Yeah. Get a bedazzled or buy some ribbons. Buy some flowers. I went and like. 

Brian [01:41:30] Dazzle your temple clothes. Yeah, exactly like that. 

Marie [01:41:33] But that means your but that means you don't fit in, right. That you're different. And that you're not going to accept that. Right. And I mean, in school, we had uniforms. Everybody's in uniform. Everybody, you know, wears the same thing. So kind of the same as a lot of religious schools. Right. They have uniforms. So you. 

Brian [01:41:52] Conform? Yeah. 

Marie [01:41:53] You're conforming. 

Brian [01:41:54] When I was asked to serve in the Bishopric, they told me I needed to shave my beard. Same reason. Conform? Absolutely. Marie, thank you so much for your time today. Do you have anything you want to say when you sign off for anything we missed? I've got all the time in the world. If there's something else. We're good. So I'm afraid I don't play. You are? 

Marie [01:42:13] I don't. I don't know if there's anything super exciting or anything new that I have to say, but like I said, I. I think that I was thinking about this and, you know, you were talking about how you have similar people sometimes on your podcast. And I just thought, you know, I so am I and I'm similar. And I just think it's just amazing. Amazing how you chose to be, I guess, the refugee out of the Mormon Church. And I think that I want you to appreciate that that is actually what you did. You know, like that's and when you look at you know, and you may deal with immigrants, you do understand their experience because you went through the same thing, like it's the same style of thinking. So I just want you to appreciate that, like, because you're like, we keep deconstructing the, you know, the religious and the Mormon church and whatever else. It's the same deconstruction. 

Brian [01:43:13] It is, it is. 

Marie [01:43:14] It is. It's the same. And, you know, deconstructing the Soviet Union is the same as deconstructing the Scientology and the Mormon Church and whatever else, just extremes of different things. 

Brian [01:43:26] So I had this conversation with my son yesterday, who is a social worker, and he does private therapy. And he deconstructed really hard. It was hard for him. He served a mission for the LDS church and came back. And he has been through and when we like to play board games and card games and everything, and he's got this board game, he's got this card game he wants for like kind of a cross between an Oracle deck and deconstruction, he's calling it. And I said I had the same idea like a year ago, and I said I was going to call mine Deconstruction the game. He's like, Yeah, that's what I'm calling mine right now. And he's like, And we can have the feminist deck and we can have the LGBTQ deck and we can have all these different things that you need to deconstruct. And so it was interesting because it is it's kind of the same process, right? If you if it's government or religion or whatever or different types of beliefs or biases or racism or whatever it happens to be. And so we decided we're going to rename it. It's now called Deconstruction The Game Nobody Wants to Play. 

Marie [01:44:24] I think you'd be surprised at how many people would enjoy it. 

Brian [01:44:29] The winner is the last person to curl up into a ball and cry that deconstruction that's. 

Marie [01:44:34] Yeah well but I don't think that's true. Like I listened to your other podcast, but you know, I feel like you have very happy endings to the game on your podcast. So it's not crawling up on the ball, but actually saying like, Look, I can talk about this. 

Brian [01:44:50] Yeah, what you didn't want to do for decades and you're finally doing now. Yeah, I, it's, it can be very emotional, but I think it's also very cathartic for so many people to just be able to tell their story and actually just get it all out there. So, yeah, thank you for doing that. 

Marie [01:45:09] Oh, absolutely. I'm excited to hear what turns out. 

Brian [01:45:13] Yeah, it's going to be a lot like this. I don't edit much of it. Yeah. Thank you so much for your time. 

Marie [01:45:18] Thanks for having me on. I love that. 

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