Leaving Mormonism:Putting the Bishop's Handbook on the Shelf

After thousands of hours of leadership training and tens of thousands of hours of committed service Jed and I independently left the Mormon religion. In this conversation, we evaluate how well/poorly we handled our exits. We both stumbled through uncharted waters, weighed down by guilt and shame. Disoriented and angry, we made many mistakes and damaged relationships with good people.

LISTEN to Jed's original episode "#112: Jed-- Deconstructing the House of Cards" or See his complete SHOW NOTES for this episode.

"There's definitely no section of the handbook on how to leave the church. Everything is designed to keep you in. You’re supposed to doubt your doubts, not question church policy. There was no soft landing getting out when it doesn't work anymore. So, yeah, you feel very isolated and alone."

Jed was a Mormon Bishop when he began asking hard questions about the religion he'd dedicated himself to his entire life.

This episode doesn't get into details about why we left organized religion. Instead, it focuses more on how we navigated that transition, in a word - poorly. But that's the whole point. Our lives are filled with transitions. Physically moving from one community to another. Mentally moving from one belief to another. Seeing the world through a broader or different perspective. Emotionally shifting between relationships. Changes of professions. We are constantly re-inventing ourselves in the search for authenticity.

 These transitions are often confusing, emotionally draining, and almost always messy. Understanding that chaos can help us through our next shift. It can also help us find the grace and the space for helping others through their difficult transitions.

Transcript

#34 Jed: Leaving Mormonism - Putting the Bishop's Handbook on the Shelf

 MUSIC

 Jed [00:00:04] I did it wrong. I'll say that with the first three or four people that we talked to. I came in guns blazing, pretty hot and heavy, like just ready to burn it down. And it was not the right approach. So I don't know. There's definitely no handbook on how to leave the church. There's no there's no instruction from them on, Hey, are you questioning here's maybe, you know, some things you can do. Everything is is designed to keep you in and to not help you find a soft landing. Getting out when it doesn't work anymore. Yeah. You feel very isolated and alone and angry, and that all came out. 

 MUSIC

 Brian [00:00:43] Three of my favorite gifts this podcast has given me are all related to connections. The first is the connection with each of my amazing guests. Then there is a special connection I've been able to have with many of my equally amazing listeners. The third is the relationship and ongoing communication with both guest and listener well after the initial recording. This is the third encore episode with the returning guest. Originally from episode 112, the day Jed Cassin comes back to talk about his feelings around his first episode. He also brings a few questions for me, and we talk a little bit about both our transitions away from religion, how it's affected a few of our relationships, and how and why this podcast got started. Thanks for listening and I hope you enjoy today's encore performance of Strangers, you know. It's about six months. 

 MUSIC

 Jed [00:01:29] Six months. And yeah, I was certainly pretty nervous about it and was pretty like wondering what the fallout might be. And interestingly enough, nothing, nothing negative. Like, I didn't hear one person who listened to my episode say anything but thank you. And so there was a very positive reaction, a very uplifting reaction to it. It is it was nervous to to come and want to do it. I had to think about it like, do I really want to put my story out there like this? And I'm really glad I did. I don't know what good it's done. I don't know how many people have heard it. I know my a lot of my friends and some of my family have listened to and they passed it around. And a lot of people have said, thank you. It was very helpful. You know, my one of my close friends said it was just good to hear somebody say what I've been thinking. And and, you know, if that's all you can do is help someone validate their feelings or their thoughts not being crazy, then then that's great. 

 Brian [00:02:29] Or not being the only one crazy. Yeah. 

 Jed [00:02:30] Or being or not. Yeah. Not being alone on that island. So. Yeah. Yeah. 

 Brian [00:02:35] Did you have some surprises from people out of the blue? 

 Jed [00:02:38] No. One out of the blue. Okay, But I did hear from, you know, my sister, for example, shared it with her son, my nephew. And I'm like, What's he want to listen to this for? Yeah. And and he came out and was like, that was some. So glad you did that. And thank you. And I'm just like, you and I. I don't think you went to church after you were nine. Like, Yeah. So I don't feel like but it's still, it's family, you know, that's the family business and it's the culture and the generational belief that was being broke. And it's, it's it was very interesting to hear a young adult who hasn't been active and has no belief or even understanding of the church other than the cultural impact living near it. So thank you. That was a good to hear somebody that feels the way about it that I do. 

Brian [00:03:25] Yeah, it's interesting. Almost without exception, people are very nervous. They have a little bit of a vulnerability hangover after it's like, Oh, maybe I shouldn't have said that. I maybe, you know, that was a little too mature or whatever. But after the fact, they say they I've only had people say they've had positive feedback from it. I'm sure there's negative feedback, but people just kind of, yeah, keep it to themselves because when you listen to the whole story, there's nothing to argue with. 

Jed [00:03:54] Yeah, it's. 

Brian [00:03:55] It's your story. It's how you see the world and how you felt it happened. So what do you want to argue about? 

Jed [00:04:01] Right? And I don't like to get into the minutia and the details and stuff. This is this is how I feel now. This is if you want to get into that discussion, I can give you 20 websites that do a way better job than I do. I can just tell you that that for me, it's it's a better life now. It's more free. I do I keep learning more about the it's the right word here, the shackles that were on me in ways that I believed things or I just saw the world through a little pinhole was probably the best way to. 

Brian [00:04:32] Say you going to say limited view, but it holds a. 

Jed [00:04:35] Very limited view of of what's going on. And the thought I had recently was, you know, I used to think things like that person can't be happy because they're they're having a beer or that person can't be happy because they're not at church. And and so I held these judgments over them that I had no idea who they were and how happy they were or whatever. But their behavior or their hobbies or their diet or whatever. I made a judgment on that. Right. 

Brian [00:05:03] And well, you were judging yourself by the same thing, right? This is the way to be happy, The one true way to be happy. And you follow all of these things and you become happy. Yeah. And so people that aren't doing that, what are they? Well, they're not happy. 

Jed [00:05:13] They're not happy. But when you talk to them, you're like, you're incredibly happy. Your life is very full, it's very diversified. And and honestly, I'm jealous and I feel a little ripped off that it took me till my mid-forties to find that. But here we are, and I'm not going to look back and be too. Yeah, too upset about it. I just got a whole new world in front of me now. Yeah, but I've. 

Brian [00:05:35] Also noticed, too, that people that have deconstructed religion also deconstruct other things. And as painful as it is to go through that, they have learned so much more about themselves and they they have a better understanding of their world than people that haven't deconstructed religion and people that just went to church and then just maybe stopped going, Yeah. 

Jed [00:05:56] Or. 

Brian [00:05:58] I've tried to part of the podcast, I've tried to talk with people that have deconstructed health and deconstructed freedom and deconstructed sexuality and and, and where they're But if they haven't deconstructed religion, those other parts all seem just a little bit shallow. Yeah, there's something about deconstructing your entire moral or value system that makes you look at other things that really is kind of eye opening. And if you have. And done that. And if you haven't been really deep in religion, you really there's not much to deconstruct. Yeah, but if you've been really deep in it and you've been really wrong about it and you realize that maybe there's a different way, you start looking at things completely different and it can be an interesting blessing. 

Jed [00:06:40] Yeah, it's it's really. 

Brian [00:06:42] Using the word blessing. 

Jed [00:06:43] Right? Yeah, there's there's still some of that, but we can take that word back. The just seeing there's so many different ways to be happy. Yeah. And, and there's so many different ways to be fulfilled in life. There's so many different ways to believe in whatever you want to believe in. And I'm just learning that we're all unique individuals. We have whatever path we we build for ourselves. But the true like peace and happiness is is being able to be authentic to who you are. And and deconstructing religion or other things allows you to find out who that is. It's scary. Like, yeah, like you feel like you're out on a ledge and. 

Brian [00:07:19] But didn't you feel before that you were authentic to who you were? If I were to ask you when you back when you were a bishop, wouldn't you have felt that for sure? 

Jed [00:07:26] I would have said, yeah. This? Yeah, this is 100%. 

Brian [00:07:29] You're living your best life and this is it, right? 

Jed [00:07:31] Yeah. And I can look back and say, I was ignoring all the. The signs around me. You know, that. That something might not have been right or I was putting things on the shelf and doing things like that and. And not allowing myself to be authentic, out of fear, out of shame and guilt. And and so. 

Brian [00:07:50] Conditioning. 

Jed [00:07:51] Conditioning, I think for me, I don't know if this is true for everybody, but for me, I learned how to believe my own lies and and, you know, believe that this is the only way back and ignore all the people around me that are not on this path but are doing great and just make excuses for why my path is better and yeah, and real freeing to not have to look through life at that lens and you see it to see such a more vibrant and rich world out there to, to be a part of. Yeah. 

Brian [00:08:22] So it's so, it seems to me like because our stories are fairly similar. Yeah. When you come across something that you didn't necessarily buy into or agree or understand, you kind of double down on it and that worked. If you double down, it'll go away. At some point you question it and you reject the whole thing and say, Well, wait a minute, and it starts to unravel and it becomes a huge mess. Yeah. 

Jed [00:08:46] How? 

Brian [00:08:46] I'm trying to understand individuals that are nuanced that stay in, but they don't really buy into that and they don't. Oh, I've never really believed that. For me, I always felt like it was very black and white. You were either all in or you had work to do. Yeah, and those were the only two options. But I've talked to several people that feel like their nuance, and they're still in the church, but they're like, Oh yeah, I never believed that. And I'm like, I didn't know that was an option. Yeah, there wasn't a buffet, right? We've been told, right? You can't pick and choose. It's all or nothing. But they're like, Oh no, I never really understood the whole, you know, the Joseph Smith thing or the Book of Mormon or whatever it was that most people get hung up on. They're like, Yeah, that doesn't bother me. I don't buy into that. How how have you viewed that? Have you talked with many people or how. 

Jed [00:09:31] Yeah, in, in initially I'd be really frustrated by it. Like, like how does this not bother you? How does it not bother you? All of the all the the misinformation and the hiding of the truth and all of the flip flopping on policies and like, how does it not bother you? And they say, yeah, I'm just happy being here. And and it really annoyed me at first, but I've just kind of come to accept that that's your path, man. If you want to take it, great. And you're not putting judgment on me for choosing not to walk it. So we're right. We're cool now. We're okay. I'm not going to I'm not going to judge you for wanting to walk it. If you're not going to judge me for not wanting to. And I don't understand it and I don't need to understand it anymore. Yeah, I feel like I used to have to like I but part of that deconstruction is letting that go. Letting go of. Yeah. Of understanding why people do things. They do it because that's what's right to them. 

Brian [00:10:28] Yeah, that's and I'm, I'm totally on board with that. I just, I just get a little curious because for me it was either you're either all in or you've got work to do to get more in. Yeah. And so for people to say, well I just don't, I'm like, I haven't understood that. I don't know if it's a generational thing or. 

Jed [00:10:43] Well, and I a theory of mine is that for those who were very black and white and like, like I wasn't like your there isn't any other option. We're in or out. That's that's my personality. That's so when I find out there's there's no truth in it or the claims are not what they claim to be, then I don't have time for it anymore. I'm out. Yeah, but there's a lot of people who find a lot of value in the cultural aspect, in the community, in the singing songs like that stuff didn't ever. That's not why I was in like it was the doctrine and the belief in the afterlife. And, and those are the things that kept me. And so when that falls apart, I didn't have this. Great social network that I was getting a lot of value out of. Okay. 

Brian [00:11:31] So I called a huge loss on the social. 

Jed [00:11:33] I feel I feel a loss on it, but it wasn't like we weren't at every third party. We weren't, you know, even even as bishop, I was not. I was it I did a lot. I'm not trying to see we were all the time. But I could also just say, you know, we're not coming tonight. They can handle it. Yeah. And so I didn't have that. And my wife was way more good at that than I was. She was just like, No, we don't need to go tonight. All right, let's not go tonight. And it was hard for a while to deal with that. But so for me, a lot of it was very dogma and doctrine related. And and yes, we have suffered socially from it, you know, and some of it's very hurtful, some really good friends and people that I feel like we had really close bonds with. And even just being released as bishop kind of broke that for me though, because I sa real quickly that at least in the world I was in when I no longer had the authority. Right. People didn't care about you anymore. Yeah. There was a certain subset of our, our ward that was like, you can't help me anymore, so you're of no use to me anymore. And so I kind of mourned that for a little while. 

Brian [00:12:37] Because you felt you had a personal connection? Yes, it was because you were bishop, right? 

Jed [00:12:41] To me, it was all person. Every one of them was very personal. Yeah. And I don't want us to sound like it's a big general umbrella statement about all members of the church. There was a handful of them that were it was a shocking and eye opening to go are all I was was a temple recommend signature for you or yeah the way to unburden your guilt you know I to me I thought we had a real relationship and then you know and then even after leaving you find out that a lot of friends are talking behind your back and you're just like, That's what this is all about now. And so that that part of it didn't really hit me as hard. I mean, there's definitely a social price to be paid, but I feel like I paid that a little earlier, so it didn't hurt as bad. Yeah, and we've repaired some of them. You know, we've we've had some good talks with some friends and kind of come to an understanding and found some really great new friends and Yeah, so yeah, things are great now and it just takes a little time and effort and know you find your new crowd to hang out with. Yeah. Yeah. So how was it you said it was really hard for you? How in what way? 

Brian [00:13:43] The, the, the social aspect. 

Jed [00:13:45] Yeah, a. 

Brian [00:13:46] Lot of the same things. I mean, I thought I had personal connections with people that, that I had served in the Bishopric with that I had coached with for eight years and, and had some long term friendships that I didn't hear from again. Yeah. And I just thought, wow, if they had moved, I would have stayed in contact a little bit more, at least Christmas card or just call every once in a while on their birthday or, you know, send him an old picture and say, hey, remember, you know, and just absolute silence and I'm trying you know, it it hurts, right? Because, I mean, these aren't just people that I was serving as my role in the priesthood. This is people I was serving with. Yes. We met ten, 20 hours a week with. Yeah. And so that that was a little hurtful. But I also realize that they need to understand what's going on. And so they have a story about what happened that makes sense to them. And part of that story I can see is, Well, you left. I didn't leave. You left. 

Jed [00:14:49] You changed the. Yeah. Like we change the dynamic, right? 

Brian [00:14:53] By leaving. And and to be fair, I didn't reach out to them either. Right. So maybe they feel like, well, you left me right after all that. So, I mean, I can see how they'd see the same thing. Yeah. 

Jed [00:15:05] And that's something that, that I've heard from some people close to me was they were hurt that I didn't trust them enough to talk to about it earlier. And I am like, well, I hope you understand why, like this isn't something that you you just you don't come out and say, Hey, I'm questioning this because we know what the response is going to be in. The last thing I needed was preaching. I needed answers and I needed I needed things that weren't say your prayers and read your scriptures. Right. That's the only response. And I know that because that's what I did. I that's what I did as a believer. That's what we're taught. That's what we all do. It's our only recourse when someone's questioning is you just need to pray harder, read more scriptures, go to the temple more. But that doesn't fix the it doesn't fix the problems. Yeah, it just busy your mind with something else. And so I understand the the hurt like you didn't trust me enough to come talk to me, but at the same time I'm like, I don't trust myself to know what I know yet. Yeah. And so I don't want to bring it up. I don't want to talk about it until I figure it out in my head. And by the time that came around, it was done. There was no like, I think I'm getting down the path. It was like I'm off the cliff now. And yeah, and so now all I have left to do is to tell you where we're at. And, and I do feel, which. 

Brian [00:16:16] You did, you reached out to a couple of people and. 

Jed [00:16:19] Yeah, we point we reached out to. 

Brian [00:16:21] And I didn't do that and I that's shame on me for doing that and. Leaving them hanging. 

Jed [00:16:26] I did it wrong. I'll say that with with the first three or four people that we talked to. I came in guns blazing, pretty hot and heavy, like just ready to burn it down. And and it was not the right approach. And then after the I think the third, the third set of friends or family that we had talked to my wife saying we probably should just dial this way back and just say, hey, we're we're stepping away and kind of leave it at that. And that seemed to be a lot nicer way to do it. So I don't know. There's no there's definitely no handbook on how to leave the church. There's no there's no instruction from them on, Hey, are you questioning here's maybe, you know, some things you can do. Everything is is designed to keep you in and to not help you find a soft landing getting out when it doesn't work anymore. So, yeah, you feel very isolated and alone and angry. And not all came out and. And I feel bad. And we've. We've talked to pretty much everyone that. That I handled it that way and said, look, we're sorry. We I screwed up on that one and things have been better. But they, they still just I don't know I don't know if they'll be back to the same or not. 

Brian [00:17:35] And I still live in the same neighborhood, right? 

Jed [00:17:37] We do, Yeah. So we run into people at the grocery store here and there and have a good little conversation and still get a few people yelling Bishop down the aisle. And that's fine. You know, I'm not offended by that or anything. But yeah, I think that that relationship, it's really sad that those relationships have to be strained because of a change in belief. Yeah. 

Brian [00:18:00] Can I change topic just a little bit? Yeah. So another thing that I've been thinking a lot about lately is, uh, masculine relationships. Hmm. How many conversations do you have? Like this with another guy? 

Jed [00:18:13] Mm hmm. 

Brian [00:18:14] Because outside of my podcast, I think I can count on maybe one hand the number of. Yeah, that I. 

Jed [00:18:19] Would say three. Three people consistently. Three other men consistently. Yeah. Yeah. 

Brian [00:18:25] I'm just very interested in that. I have a, an episode that I'm going to record in a couple of weeks about a trans man and he is a trans coach. He helps people transition and he transitioned like seven years ago and he had a breakdown on Instagram one night that just like he gets no intimate conversations with anybody and he says, I didn't realize how much I was going to miss that, how much that was being part of a man. And I've got another friend who's trans, and he said the same thing, that he heard the same talk, but he's like, now that people are recognizing me, that those conversations have stopped. 

Jed [00:19:04] Interesting. 

Brian [00:19:05] And so I've just been thinking a lot about that, about why that is and why we need to talk about sports or, you know, work or whatever their handful of topics that you can talk about in details, movies or whatever, but things that really matter and emotions and things that mistakes. And there's there's no room for those kinds of conversations for among men. And I'm not sure why that is. 

Jed [00:19:29] Yeah. 

Brian [00:19:30] So if you've got all the answers. 

Jed [00:19:31] No. 

Brian [00:19:32] I'm recording. 

Jed [00:19:32] I don't I, I mean there's, there's definitely some social expectations that we all buy into. Yeah. At some point, definitely the, the patriarchy that we're raised up in, in the church and in society, in American society, and that's all kind of ingrained. But those are all maybe excuses on why we don't, because it really I mean it's it's always a very fulfilling it's always a very uplifting thing. And and we hide from our I don't know, is it the rub the dirt in it from when we're four years old. Right. And we just internalized that. And it's one more thing we need to to break down because there's there's so many great ways to learn and connect with people with. If you can just kind of get past some of that. Yeah. 

Brian [00:20:20] Those blocks and it's like coming out with your, with your story and airing that and realizing, Oh, I'm in a field, did I say too much or whatever? And you're like, No, it was actually quite freeing. 

Jed [00:20:29] Yeah. 

Brian [00:20:29] And I have a lot of you have a lot of people that reach out and say, Thank you for doing that. And it's like, So why don't we do this more often in other places? Why is it still so limited? Because when you do do it, you feel like you're breaking social norms. And honestly, without this podcast, we never would have met, We never would have this discussion. We wouldn't have had a second discussion, right? I mean, maybe we would have had a second eventually. But it it like you said, it's so it's so uplifting, it's so eye opening. And it and it's so, so much more bonding than another round of golf. Yeah. I mean, I don't know what they get out of another round of golf. I enjoy golfing. It's beautiful. I get out there, it's fun to go around. But do you have any stronger emotional ties after 20 rounds of golf than have it than having not golfed at all? I don't see that it's you just meet someone. You sit in the same cart for four and a half hours and that's it. I don't know. Maybe I'm missing the boat. Maybe I'm completely maybe the golfers out there can tell me that I. No, but. 

Jed [00:21:21] No, I think you're. You're definitely right. I have. I have a. Some old friends that I golf with where we just talk about football. And then I have a couple of friends that I golf with. And we talk about marriage and kids and. And that's who I want to go golf with now. You know, so those those. And golf is just a dedicated time. You know, it can be anything. Bowling, right? Yeah. Cards. 

Brian [00:21:44] Whatever you want to do. Hunting camp. 

Jed [00:21:46] Yeah. So. But it's. It's having a couple people be willing to be a little vulnerable. 

Brian [00:21:52] Yeah, but you're right. And I think a lot of that's on me because I'll be the first one to talk about movies or whatever and make a topical conversation that doesn't have any real depth to it. Maybe I just need to get better at practicing and saying, Let's take this to another level. I have a son in law that wants to start every conversation with. What do you think happens to us after we die? Not How are you today? Yeah, not. Did you see the game last night? That's where he wants to. 

Jed [00:22:13] Start the conversation. 

Brian [00:22:14] And if you're not willing to have that level of conversation with him, then he's going to be off in the corner. He's not interested. Yeah, I don't even talk about whatever sports or whatever. 

Jed [00:22:22] So, yeah, there's a definitely a masculine fear of being vulnerable. Yeah. And there's there's no good reason for it because that's just what we've done. Yeah. So. 

Brian [00:22:32] Right. Well when you come up with the answer. Yeah. 

Jed [00:22:34] I mean, you'll be the first one to talk. 

Brian [00:22:35] Yeah, please do. Let's, let's have a nice conversation. We'll go golfing and talk about. 

Jed [00:22:38] It and be fun. 

Brian [00:22:39] All right? What do you want to talk about? You had a You got a list? 

Jed [00:22:42] I did have a list. All right. I didn't know how many of these were going to get through with you, but. So, yeah, I've been thinking over the last week or two about questions I would want to ask. And then let's start here. So deconstructing means to me it meant like. Like reevaluating my life, who I want in it, what I want to believe, what my goals are. So a thought I had is to ask like, are there some past heroes or people that that you looked up to, that you've had to reevaluate that relationship? And if so, how's that going? Because there's a lot of relationships I've had to re construct. 

Brian [00:23:19] You know, I think a lot of it goes with church leadership. And I'll say that on two levels. I used to really look up to a lot of the the the 12 apostles. There's always one or two that everybody has a little bit hard time with. He's a lawyer and he's just getting down to the nitty gritty. And but there are a few that just spoke to my soul, you know, it felt like and to hear them speak against the LGBTQ community, I'm like, Oh, that is so hard to hear. 

Jed [00:23:43] Yeah. 

Brian [00:23:45] And not that. So when I left the doctrine, I still thought, well, what great people for what they're doing and everything. And I'm like, Really? And then there's the part is like everything that was bothering me, it's like, well, they've heard this before, right? They know. They know what's actually not in the priesthood manuals that that should be or could be. And so I was pretty angry with them at that point. And that comes down to the stake presidencies that I worked with as well. These are great people. They're just the salt of the earth people. I mean, I got really lucky with a lot of the the bishops who left and and stake presidency, roulette and everything. And and so for a while I was there was just a little angry. Yeah. It's like, well. 

Jed [00:24:21] How. 

Brian [00:24:22] Have they just kept this on the shelf and and it it quickly came back to me it's like, well how did you do it? 

Jed [00:24:27] Right? 

Brian [00:24:28] Right. Someone coming to accuse you. And that's part of the reason that when I left is like, I this is why I have to leave. I can't keep carrying this water anymore. I got to dump it all out. I don't want to have anything to do with it. It's poison, you know? And so maybe they're just not there yet. So that's. 

Jed [00:24:45] Have you has there been new people or new organizations or groups that have it? I guess the first question, is there a void from from losing that? And if so, is there have been someone new that you've tried to fill it with? 

Brian [00:24:59] Yeah. So I, I purposefully tried to re when I created the my Instagram for this podcast, I purposely it was it so it's a new personality and I started following as diverse of population as possible and I had done that for so long that I'm getting all of these LGBTQ, I'm getting all kinds, okay, It's so much more color in my posts, so much more everything. And I've been and that's where I spent a lot of my time on social media. And just recently I went back to LinkedIn and I'm looking at that and I'm like, Wow, is that old white male? I mean, there there's a few exceptions, but I'm like, Wow, that is I didn't realize how much my followers or follow the people that I were following. My feeds have changed from that intentional. So there are a lot of people that speak out for just activists and rights and just emotional bases and are very open about their who they are. And I learn a lot from them. And I wouldn't have. 

Jed [00:26:03] Wouldn't even know they existed. 

Brian [00:26:05] Wouldn't have even known. I probably would have been a little cringed would have cringed a little bit about how if I had run across one of their posts earlier. Yeah, but now I'm cringing because I go back to my LinkedIn account that I haven't touched for a while and I'm thinking, Wow, that is that is some buttoned up white matter right there. 

Jed [00:26:21] That's an interesting world right there. Yeah. 

Brian [00:26:23] And a lot. Of authors that just have what I love Brené Brown, and what I like Brené Brown for a long time, but also Glennon Doyle. I like a lot of female writers that are just out there, that are, that are have their voice and they're saying different perspectives that I'm not aware of. I don't know what that perspective is like, but now I feel like I'm getting a little bit better understanding to it. 

Jed [00:26:45] It's it's nice to allow all those different voices. Yeah. Because the the the church teaching is there's one voice and it's from these 15 men and and just stay with what they tell you and you'll be fine. And then when you allow yourself to look outside of it, know. Wait a minute. I really like how Bernie Brown talks and that speaks to me. Or I like Eckhart Toliver or whoever it is. Then you don't have to follow them with exactness. You can just appreciate that they are appreciate the parts that you like. Take it in, take what's good for you. Leave the rest that you don't want to. But. But I feel like I have instead of just, you know, Arby's every day, I've got the whole the whole culinary world in front of you. And you can just kind of start exploring and see what feels good and sounds right. And and it's very refreshing to open up. 

Brian [00:27:35] I do have to confess that I haven't been a very good friend to a couple of people. I started to see them as a little bit narrow minded. They weren't. They were pretty set in their ways and I'm not sure I wanted to keep hearing that same. Going back to some of your friends and having them convince you that, well, you shouldn't stay or there's a reason for that or whatever, it's like, No, no, no, that's not what we want to talk about. Yeah, I don't. And so I didn't hear from them for a moment for a long time, and I didn't do anything to reach out to them either. And again, they're probably making up stories on their side. Try to understand the situation just like I am, and I may have damaged some long term relationships unnecessarily. I think there was obviously I've changed a lot in the last few years. I haven't given them any room to make that same change or assume that they're in the same place and just say we are, but they'll never change. Right. I don't know that we haven't even had a discussion about it. Yeah, I haven't even told them why I. But the story in my head is they don't want to hear it. Maybe they do. I don't know. I feel like I have. That's kind of something that I have really kind of shot myself in the foot on, I think. 

Jed [00:28:47] And I think that that was actually one of my other questions is what's your inner monologue like now? And that's kind of I know what you're talking about a little bit is we assume that they don't want to hear it or that they're not forging a new path or something. And I I've thought about that a lot as well. Like, do I bring something up to this person? And and maybe that goes back to the how come we can have more intimate discussions as we our feelings and our core beliefs become almost combative sometimes where and I've seen this, where if I say something negative about the church, people who are in the church get really defensive. And I'm like, okay, so we can't talk about that, right? Because that is something that you take very personally. And then I just make this blanket assumption that all of them are going to. Right. And that's not fair to a lot of people who who definitely could benefit from the conversation. 

Brian [00:29:38] But I think sometimes we make that assumption because when we were in their situation, we made that assumption. 

Jed [00:29:43] Yeah, it comes. 

Brian [00:29:44] From so we kind of feel like we know how they will react to that because that's how I would have reacted to that. Yeah, again, I think we're trapping them in a moment of time. That's like, Well, who's to say they haven't grown and changed and they're they're the same person that they were five years ago. I know. I'm not. Yeah, not the same person I was five weeks ago. Right, Right. So when, when it's been close to a year that I've talked with, some of them were more that it's like, well, who's to say that we couldn't just have a conversation. But again, you do risk saying the wrong thing. 

Jed [00:30:14] Yeah. 

Brian [00:30:15] And we've both changed. I don't know where they are. I don't know where their land mines are. They don't know where minor. 

Jed [00:30:20] And that's that's a problem we need to to get past because, I mean, there's so many of these old friends and old people that I'd love to reacquaint and then have a relationship with, but I need to have that, I guess, back to my old missionary days and being bold and just saying, hey, can we talk about this or is it off limits? Yeah, let's let's just see where we're at. I'm not trying to talk you out of anything. You're not trying to talk me into anything, but I'm genuinely interested in where you're at and then see if we're paddling in the same direction anymore. You know, I think we'll find out. More often than not, we're more. We're closer together than we think we are. 

Brian [00:30:53] Yeah. Again, with these podcasts, the more people I talked with as diverse as they are, there are some things that they pick up from all of them. But there's also some things that's like, I'm not sure I'm there with you on that, but why can't we be there with our old relationships the same way Did I think we're not there with you on that anymore? We used to be. Where? I'm not in the same place you are with that. But can't we move forward with something else? Yeah, that was our entire relationship. Wasn't all based off of that. So are we protecting them or are we protecting us? 

Jed [00:31:23] That's a good question. I mean, the easy answer is we're protecting both, a little of both. But I think when it comes down to it, we always protect ourselves first. 

Brian [00:31:32] Yeah. And make it look like we're doing them a favor by making sure that we're not damaged. 

Jed [00:31:38] Yeah. And we coming out of coming out of the churches have been hurts and their scars, and they're not fun to reopen. Yeah, So. 

Brian [00:31:46] And they're still very sensitive. Yes. I mean, it's it takes a long time for those wounds to heal. 

Jed [00:31:51] Take some time. And and so, I mean, ultimately, it's on. On each of us individually to be better and do better. So I think there is a little bit of truth to it on both sides. But at some point, we need to stand up and and on who we are. Be proud of that. Yeah, it's scary. We don't like to be rejected. We don't like to have people laugh at it. So I think there's for me at least, there's a little bit of fear that in having that conversation with somebody is hurting them or having them reject how I feel about it and something to work on. Yeah. 

Brian [00:32:22] It's also there's there's so much history with with that as well. Like some of these relationships I talk about I've known him for a decade or we've actually lived in this house for 22 years. Yeah. So we've known most of the people in the ward since they moved into the ward. But I have relationships that go back 20 years beyond that. And for that whole entirety, we were both battling the same canoe in the same direction and I'm in a different canoe. And so maybe that's part of the break is I'm like, okay, we're not in that same canoe. But again, there's not just one element to a relationship, right? To a friendship. 

Jed [00:32:56] So my my uncle, who I'm really close with, have two uncles and I'm really close to one on my mom's side and one of my dad's. My mom was really young when she had me, so I grew up with my aunts and uncles almost as siblings. And so I have one uncle who who left the church real early on in his life, like 18, 19 years old, something like that. And I can't remember. I must have posted something. And he called me like, we haven't talked in a while. We call him. He's like, How are you doing? I'm like, Holy cow. Like, I'm so glad to hear from you. This has been awful. And we talked and and he he said something. I was talking to him about my relationship with my mom and like, if I'm worried that it will just be done back, It's we're we're we're not going to see eye to eye on very many things after this. And I hurt her more than more than I've ever hurt her. You know, it was it was devastating. And and he said, you know, I heard my mom, your grandma, the same way he goes. But if you'll just focus on the million things you still have in common and let this one go, you'll be just fine. And and there's a lot of wisdom in that that, you know, some things might be too personal, but it doesn't have to be everything that our relationship based on. We have like my mom and I love to bake pies so we can talk about baking pies and, you know, we don't have to talk about church. We can leave that leave that alone for another time and still have good conversations about parenting and, you know, social issues that we believe in and just leave that out. And and that was a really good advice for me to broaden that relationship outside of just church. And I think there's some real value in that with all of our relationships in the church, it's that's the common denominator and we just sit on it and yeah, let that be the basis of our relationships. When you start to explore things outside of that, you find out that, hey, I'm along common with them that isn't around religion and God and, and we have all these other wonderful things that we can talk about and go and do and, and grow together with. 

Brian [00:34:53] Yeah, I'm just wondering that commonality. So while even before I left the church, I had coach Hockey for 20 years and a lot of the people that I coached hockey with when they stopped coaching or when I stopped coaching, I never heard from them again, literally never again. I've been coaching for ten, 12 years with a lot of these people and I again, I thought we had friendships and was like it was just all based off of hockey. 

Jed [00:35:14] Yeah. 

Brian [00:35:14] And you'd remove that and it's like, what do we have in common outside of that? It's a little weird to think of as like we were we saw each other outside of hockey all the time. We saw each other mostly for hockey, but we had lots of road trips where we'd hang out together on the weekends and do all that stuff and families get together and all that stuff. But maybe the same thing is a lot of the relationships with the Ward was only with church and with lacrosse. It was only lacrosse and hockey was hockey. And and what if most of the relationships we had with our old relationships were something like that, though? Yeah. That we may not believe in. I mean, the church isn't the only thing that I've changed my views on in the past five years. Right? So all of those other things, in my opinion, still state or my understanding are static in those relationships. I don't want to go back to any of those opinions. I can be friends with people that have those opinions, so why can't I be friends with people that still have those opinions? That's, you know, that's what I'm I'm trying to figure out internally why that's such a problem for me. 

Jed [00:36:09] Well, and I think some of that is we have we have rings of friendships. You know, we only have room for so many really intimate relationships. If we had a real intimate relationship with everyone we knew, think we'd have time for more than a handful of people. So. I've I've always looked at it as, you know, I've got my five or ten really core relationships and then there's a ring outside of that with another 20 or 30, you know, and it kind of keeps going out. And just today I was listening to another podcast and they talked about the they see it in primates as well as in humans. I can't remember. They call it now the Doppler effect or something. But it basically means we can really only have a relationship with about 150 people. Yeah. And it just keeps narrowing down to where you can have, you know, within a marriage or a committed relationship. You have that one really solid core and then your kids and your really close friends and it kind of goes out. And so I've thought a lot about some of those friends that were in those outer rings and like, if that's all we had in common was was a belief in a religion, then I wasn't very good friend to find out more about them. Yeah, and then maybe we were, you know, maybe we need to just find other people in those in those spheres. But I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Right. I don't think it's I think it's a bad thing to try to find people that uplift and they share some commonalities with the same time, I think we need to be much more open and and intimate and see if we can develop better relationships. Yeah. 

Brian [00:37:34] And part of growth is change, right? Yeah. So means you're giving up something for something different, Right? So what else you got. 

Jed [00:37:41] Just coming out of the holidays. Well, I guess we're not quite out of them yet, but what, what other holidays or cultural traditions have you had to deconstruct and if any, How's that going? 

Brian [00:37:53] So this was the first year in four years, but I actually enjoyed Christmas. So that's a kind of a positive sign for me, right? Was last year was awful. I had such a hard time last year, oddly enough, about five years ago. You can tell that I like books. Yes, right. About five years ago I found this Icelandic holiday where on Christmas Eve they give each other books and chocolates and then they spend Christmas Eve sitting, reading their books and eating their chocolate. So I five years ago, I started this tradition. We just with my my kids, where we would meet at Sam Weller's bookstore, they'd pick out whatever books they'd want. I'd buy them. We'd go up to Hatch's Chocolate up in the Avenue. So we buy them all chocolates, and we'd sit down and talk about the books that we picked out and why we picked those out and what was interesting to us and everything else. So we've done that five years in a row now. I love. 

Jed [00:38:46] That. That's awesome. 

Brian [00:38:47] I have a lot of fun with that. We try to make it on the winter solstice. Another reason to celebrate The Longest Night, the most reading time of the year, right? That's how I look at it. You get less sun, but. 

Jed [00:38:57] But it's also the last day of the less sun. Yeah. So there's other reason. 

Brian [00:39:01] More sun every day. So we celebrate for that. So that's been a really good one. And I also like, I don't know if you know, the comedian Tim Minchin, he has a song called White Wine in the Sun. It's about Christmas. I'll have to send you the link because it has some great words. He is an avowed atheist, agnostic, atheist I would say, but he's got a he pokes fun at religion through a lot of his comedy and everything else he's had it up to here with with organized religion, but his song is a little bit about that, but mostly about how he celebrates Christmas having white wine in the sun because he's from Australia. So it's it's somewhere there. So that's a great song. So that's helped a little bit finding some alternatives that I can that I can jive with. 

Jed [00:39:48] It's it's hard like those my, my wife and I talked about this a lot like we want it to be how it was but I don't think it ever will be. Yeah there's there's no there's no spiritual meaning in the day to me anymore. Yeah. And, and that's not coming back. So we're, we're still exploring, trying to find and find new things to, to still make it a celebration because there's are reasons to celebrate their reasons and get together and be with family and eat food and play games and all that stuff. And, and we need to find maybe some other little meaning in it for us. 

Brian [00:40:20] And but a lot of the families around you that you spend that time with, they're still celebrating Christmas. So you can't like, hijack their stuff either. But yeah, it it is it's tricky because it's there's also there's so much of a mixture there, especially when you get it in the holidays. They're big family gatherings. So there are all kinds of diversity, even in your own little family that once used to be much more homogenous, that it's just they're huge groups that just don't agree on the nature of the the get together. 

Jed [00:40:52] Yeah, and I'm glad we still get together right And there's just parts of parts of what goes on that we need to ignore. Yeah. Step outside of the of the room for a minute or you know whatever you need to do to, to, to get through it. But maybe I like the idea of, of finding the way other cultures have celebrated the solstice. Yeah. And those things, we need to look into that more. 

Brian [00:41:14] And that gives us our little celebration the week before. And then when Christmas comes around, it's like, kind of already done our thing. We're just here. This is kind of just an encore for. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's it's. 

Jed [00:41:24] Kind of so balance. Balance. Been a rough one. A rough one for us. 

Brian [00:41:28] I had a lot of triggers with Christmas you noticed where we don't have we used to have a ton of lights on the house. We don't anymore. We just have the six trees and they're the colors of the rainbow. And yeah, that was something that we just came up with this year and I'm like, I love that. I love those trees. I might leave those up year, right? You won't see them at all in the summer, but it doesn't get dark at five. But. 

Jed [00:41:47] Right. And we you know, we took all our nativity down and we've we've tried to make it more snowmen and, you know, just non non-religious symbolism to it. 

Brian [00:41:58] But do you think there's a day that those nativity scenes might come back with maybe the same level as Santa Claus or snowman or something or. 

Jed [00:42:06] I think there's a day I don't know if I'll see it. Yeah, maybe like like culturally you're asking, like. 

Brian [00:42:12] No. For you. 

Jed [00:42:12] For me? No, no, no. I think is a society that where a lot of the religions are going, it's going to be much harder to hold them up against all the evidence of them not being what they claim to be. So I think I think we'll see that societally go away. But yeah, I can't I can't see me ever looking at that stuff in a nostalgic way. Yeah, but I'm open to change. Yeah. Yes. You'll see what, what the future brings. 

Brian [00:42:39] Is it, is it triggering for you to see them still or is it just something that's. 

Jed [00:42:43] Triggering to see him in certain areas, like seeing it on a in a school or at a in a town hall. 

Brian [00:42:51] A place that should be a. 

Jed [00:42:52] Place that should be neutral. 

Brian [00:42:53] To everyone. A neutral? 

Jed [00:42:54] Uh huh. That's very triggering. I, i if the church wants to put it up front, like, that's wonderful. I have no problem with that at all. That's their belief and their sincerely held belief, and they have every right to celebrate it and worship it however they see fit. So it's triggering in the mingling of, you know, society in large and religion, wanting to put a big blanket over it and control all of it. Yeah, but I don't like walking into a house with it. I don't have any problem with that. Yeah, but so I guess, I mean, the triggering things are just when it's really publicly displayed in places that shouldn't be. Yeah. Picking a side in that world. Yeah, that's a good point. So outside of that I think I don't, I'm getting better with that. Not, not too many things trigger me the way they used to, which is good. 

Brian [00:43:41] I heard someone the other day talk about how they had to deconstruct being LDS and then they had to deconstruct being ex-Mormon Yeah, I thought that's interesting because they realized they were still defining themselves against the church. And it's like, Well, that's not who I am either. I need to let that go. I need to get past that and find out what what the next stages that I'm like, Yeah, I think it's very easy to get trapped in that because for a long time that's how you define who you were. And then it was like anything but that, everything against that kind of thing. And then it's like, Well, no, that doesn't define who I am either. Yeah. And, and there that I knew early on. It's like there are parts of that that I'm going to take with me, right? I'm not going to just take all of it down. There are parts of it that worked for me. They work for my family. They work for many people and I applaud them for that. And they're parts of that that I'm going to take with. But most of it was even triggering even some of the stuff that I think might eventually come with me, I think was triggering for a while. 

Jed [00:44:36] All of the triggers initially because that that those cuts are just wide open. And. 

Brian [00:44:40] Yeah, but you don't want to camp there, right? Right. You don't want to have that be defining. Yeah. 

Jed [00:44:44] I don't want to end up the the bitter ex-Mormon guy ranting and and protesting and you know, I want to live life better than that. But there's definitely a benefit to going through that anger. Yes. And going through the the pain and the hurt. There's a protective nature to it. Like I don't you know, your bullshit meter is very sensitive now. Right. So there's there's some real benefit to it. But I don't want to live in that world. I want to be angry. I want to be happy and at peace. And and it's. It's coming. That's good. But do you think. 

Brian [00:45:20] That in Utah, Gabby and I have had this conversation a couple of times that people understand how to handle, how to deal with people that were never Mormon Right. They clearly know how to handle people that are Mormon they know how to handle people that are ex-Mormon. But how do they handle people that no longer identify as ex-Mormon? I think they have a hard time finding that category for them. You were either in the church, you were never in the church or you've left the church. Those are the three categories. Yes. And I think there's another category there that I don't think people have recognized. It's like, no, I move beyond being an ex-Mormon. That's there's something else. What did I move to? A move to me, Right. 

Jed [00:45:55] Right. They moved to authenticity and yeah, and moved to being healthy. Yeah. 

Brian [00:46:00] But I think it's a hard category to place people in, so they just forever see you as the former bishop, Right? 

Jed [00:46:05] It's hard because you're taught that like there's a special corner in hell for people who leave the church. 

Brian [00:46:11] They serve coffee there that. 

Jed [00:46:12] Right into to see them doing well is a real the mind bender. Yeah. I remember people leaving the church when I was in and then, you know, a couple of years later, like. You seem really happy. And good for you, I guess. You know, it was. You don't know how to handle it. Yeah, but it might. 

Brian [00:46:30] As been conditioned for it. They're not happy. Yeah, well, they seem pretty happy. 

Jed [00:46:34] I'm really happy either. 

Brian [00:46:35] They seem to be happier now than they were when they were. 

Jed [00:46:37] Yeah. And they don't have anger. You know, they're not lashing out at the church. You know that. So. So you didn't have any reason to be mad at them? Yeah. They weren't attacking your beliefs. So, I mean, I think that's a good goal for everybody to get to just be to an authentic, happy, peaceful place. It takes some time, though. And and I think that anger and that hurt is what drives it. But you got to move past that at some point and get out of that. 

Brian [00:47:01] Anger is a powerful motivator for sure. Probably one of the strongest motivators. So, yeah, that's definitely part of it. It's also part of the healing process. 

Jed [00:47:09] So very much so. I had one more question I wrote down for you. 

Brian [00:47:12] Awesome. 

Jed [00:47:13] Why are you doing this podcast? How did it like. How did it start? How how's it helped you? The struggles. 

Brian [00:47:19] So I've been normally I plan thing to the nth degree. I've worked a lot in operations. I can see problems way down the road. Before they get here. I want to have everything ironed out before I even start. I do that when I start businesses. I've been entrepreneur. When I teach a course, I need to know how every assignment fits into everything. I need to see the whole master plan. When I write a book, I need to see the whole thing. When I started this podcast, I just like it was one of the few times in my life I just like, I'm just going to do this. It's going to. 

Jed [00:47:46] Wing it and. 

Brian [00:47:47] I'm just going to jump in and just and it's been wonderful. Now I'm into it almost 30 episodes and yes, it's been 30 weeks and I'm trying to look okay, So now that I know what I should do, what do I need to do to kind of fix this? I've learned a lot along the way now, but I'm really taking a lot of time now saying, let's define it. What is it? What isn't it? Why? How do I know what's being better? What can I do to make it have it give more value to my listeners? And I find out it's a little bipolar. It's a it's kind of two things. So the two way and I'm trying to decide which one of those is right? So if from my listeners, I'd love you to tune in to see which one of these if I had to pick one. Which one of these do I pick. Right. There is the idea that for deconstruction we can have deep, meaningful personal discussions about deconstructing not only the church but everything through it, or any religion, but everything around that. I think those are some really interesting conversations to have people just tear apart their whole lives and try to piece it back together. I think it gets very emotional. I think they learn more about themselves and the outside world and everything else. So I think those are fascinating conversations. But the thing that really got me started on it was my conversation that I was having with some of my former hockey players and lacrosse players. And I just like people need to understand people like me. I didn't understand all the stuff that Jackson was going through. When he was going through it, I was oblivious to it at the time. I was right there with him side by side through the whole thing, didn't know anything and even. 

Jed [00:49:15] See it happening in front of your eyes. 

Brian [00:49:17] And and I wouldn't have understood it. It would have all been shocking and I wouldn't have known how to handle that being where I was at the time. So part of my eye opening or awakening or whatever else you want to call it was understanding that what I've been taught and what I believed about certain types of people is probably wrong. How would I know that I haven't had the opportunities to get to know all these different people. And so the genesis of the podcast, Strangers, you know, is what if we get someone with completely different background from you and we just talk with them and see what's going on in their lives, those don't get as deep or as personal sometimes. But we've talked about racism, we've talked about sexual identity, we've talked about homelessness, we've talked about about being emigrate immigrants. We've talked about all kinds of different topics. We talked about health and cancer survivors and and and people that teach meditation. And and you're just meeting all these different people that you wouldn't have had a chance to meet, which is exactly what we don't get on any social media. Right? We spend so much time on that we skim across the surface we only get the nice pretty postcard picture of it. We don't really know that person at all or their life and they look like us. They sound like us. They believe like us. The all of the the algorithm makes sure that they do. Yeah. And I want to what I did with my Instagram account was break out of that completely, start a new one, and just add purposely just add people that I never would have added before and just follow them and get to know them. So that's the other thing. And I'm not sure if those two fit together anymore. I think that the two of them are conflict with each other and it's not very clear about what this podcast is about either one of those I have a very clear definition for when I muddle them together. It's not like one supports the other necessarily. They're two different topics, they're two different conversations. And sometimes we go more one way and sometimes we go more another in this. And maybe that's what it is. Maybe I just label them as a red or blue, or maybe not red or blue. Do pink and green. 

Jed [00:51:14] Yeah. 

Brian [00:51:17] So that's kind of why I started it. For me, I started being very interested in. People that I've never had an opportunity to get to know, and especially people that don't have the same beliefs or the same background or the same history or life experiences or perspective on life. And I want to know why. And I have. I have. We all know people that are very locked into their political views and everyone else is an idiot. They are absolute idiots. It's like everybody else is an idiot. They're pretty smart people on the other side. I'm interested to know why they think that, and a lot of having those conversations like that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm going to change my mind about it, but I would like to know what they're thinking and not just call them an idiot and say, That makes me smarter. 

Jed [00:52:01] Right. 

Brian [00:52:02] Right. Not knowing both sides of the story doesn't make you smarter. It makes you less smart, right? 

Jed [00:52:07] If you're in an echo chamber. Exactly. And you don't ever you don't ever grow or you're not challenged in any way. 

Brian [00:52:13] And life's not a zero sum game. If we knew their side and our side, couldn't we find a solution that would work for both of them? I'm. I'm naive enough to think that I can. 

Jed [00:52:22] I think there's. 

Brian [00:52:23] I think that's much better than just throwing rocks at the other side and hoping that you can throw more rocks this election than they can throw rocks. And then that's who wins. It's like nobody wins with that. No. And I don't I can't fix a political system, although I have a very simple solution that would. But I think that's the nature of it, how well it's doing. I'd like to see more conversation from my listeners chiming in on what they learned, what meant most to them, how they viewed something, what they took from each episode. So I've started a Facebook community and there are there's a handful of people that are on there. They're not doing it. And I get it. People are listening to the podcast because they're out walking around, they're shopping, they're doing whatever. They're not by a computer. And the last thing they think about when they get on Facebook is to go check out some obscure community and share some comments about something they heard three days ago. I would like that to be the case. I think this these conversations could spill over into another community if it got large enough, if it got if I did a better job. So I'm trying to figure out now what the identity is and how to do it better. 

Jed [00:53:22] Well, there's a big learning curve that you're going through, and. 

Brian [00:53:25] It's been a huge learning curve just figuring out how it. 

Jed [00:53:27] Works. 

Brian [00:53:28] Right? I still don't know how to market it. I'm working on that. 

Jed [00:53:32] So, yeah, there's it's a big undertaking. I, I admire anyone who who tries. I just think about a year. I got to prepare questions. I mean, you've got to edit things after you got to know how all this equipment works. It's a big undertaking and and I applaud you for for doing it. I think we need more voices and the more perspective and input we get out on the airwaves and in people's head, the better society we create. So I am I think it's a really good thing, and I'm glad it's going well. Yeah, I hope. 

Brian [00:54:03] It's doing well. I don't know if I narrowed this down to one listener, I think I'd still do it. Yeah, just because I get so much out of it, I just enjoy meeting the people and having these heartfelt conversations about things that really matter and seeing their perspectives. And honestly, the more different that I learned from all them people that are just like me, people that are exact opposite of me. Great. Let's talk with all of them, because I just I love getting to know to see the world through their eyes. Yeah. And helping me understand it a little bit better and understand myself. 

Jed [00:54:33] And I think that's one of the biggest. Like you said, fixing the political system. Like, don't even talk to each other. Yeah. You know, like, so we got to have these conversations. We've got to and we've got to be willing to change and to give a little to to give up a little of what we want to to give somebody a little bit of what they want. And when we can, we can make it a better place. But yeah, we get too stuck in these echo chambers and it's too easy for our biases and our indoctrination. However you want to say that, to just take hold. Yeah. And we can surround ourselves with everybody who says the same things and believes the same things and never get out of that circle. And there's a whole great big wide world out there that thinks a little differently, believes a little differently. If you can have a little empathy and compassion for them, great things happen. 

Brian [00:55:18] And I think it helps you understand why they believe a little differently. Yeah, I think a little differently and think, oh, I haven't considered that. No, you haven't, because you don't have that perspective. You've never asked them. 

Jed [00:55:27] You haven't had to deal with whatever this person's going through. You haven't had to deal with being homeless or, you know, being a member of the LGBT community or being a person of color in a predominantly white. You know, I can't walk in those shoes, but I can talk to somebody and try to feel what they feel and change how I believe and act and behave. And we need more of it. So I think these conversations are wonderful ways to get that going. No, it takes guts to do it. Yeah. 

Brian [00:55:56] Put my neck out there that. But honestly, it's on the front line. I really appreciate our conversations. Yeah, we never would have met otherwise. And we're almost we're so close to each other. It was very easy to meet you right through a personal connection that I would never would have had a chance to sit down. Right. But you also said something. You said that the politicians, they don't they won't even talk to each other. And I think the opposite of that is what is the case is like. They won't listen to each other. 

Jed [00:56:23] Right. I'll talk. 

Brian [00:56:23] And that's that's why I wanted I wanted to bring that up because all of my listeners that are out there, I'm doing the talking and you're doing the talking, but they're the ones that are listening. My heart goes off to them for listening and each episode, and I know there are parts of it that make people cringe a little bit in some episodes they disagree with. I know we touch nerves, and for the most part people are saying, I had to fast forward a little bit when you talk about that, because it was a little too close to home to a personal experience that I had that was similar or something like that. But they said I wanted to hear the episode, I wanted to hear how it ended, I wanted to hear the rest of it. But I get that some of that can be very triggering and I appreciate the people that are able to that are willing to come back week after week and listen to the next one and learn from the next one. 

Jed [00:57:04] And I think at our core, that's all we want is to be understood, right? Mike? As humans, as individuals, yeah. Respected for the life we've lived and understood a little bit for decisions we make. And I think learning as much as you can about other people helps you to to be that way. And I was listening to your your interview with Jackson on the way up here where he interviewed you and. Oh, and you were just talking about Love thy Neighbor and how that was the core of your. 

Brian [00:57:34] For. 

Jed [00:57:34] Me, for you. And it still is. Yeah. That's one of those things you're not giving given back, right? It's such a simple concept that we just don't do nearly enough of that. Just accept them like they're struggling. Life's hard for everybody. My problems are different than yours, but they're huge to each of us individually. And we can have a little room to let people even be angry and and learn from it. Just be better people. And these are the conversations that get that started? I think so, yeah. 

Brian [00:58:02] You know, I was having a a conversation this week with one of my listeners. She she also tells me my voice puts her to sleep. So if you're awake. Steph But we were talking about Brené Brown and she said something early on that she, she was angry at somebody and someone says, What if you knew if there was a way that I could prove to you that that person you're so angry about, that you're mad with for whatever reason, what if I could prove to you that they really are trying their best? And she thought about it and almost came to tears like I do almost every time I think about it. It's like, Well, that makes me the asshole, right? What if we had that space and that charity to give to everyone that's out there to think, Well, what if they really are trying their best? Yeah, Regardless of their political beliefs or religious beliefs or where they are in life or their socioeconomic status, or the color of their skin or their sexual preference or any of that, they're just being them and they're trying to be the best person. So don't be an asshole. Yeah, let them be that person. Give them the benefit of the doubt and love your neighbor. 

Jed [00:59:00] Yeah. And celebrate. 

Brian [00:59:02] Celebrate it. 

Jed [00:59:03] Celebrate that they're different because that makes life more interesting. 

Brian [00:59:07] Yeah. And what they're doing doesn't take away anything from you. 

Jed [00:59:10] No, no, that's. That's one of those biggest misconceptions is what? And it's not just religion. There's politics. Do this, too, like they think a certain way. So I just can't I can't be friends with them. Right. And so narrow minded, so narrow minded and so hurtful. And you're hurting yourself more than anything by not letting that different perspective into your life. Yeah. 

Brian [00:59:32] So I have. You have any other topics? 

Jed [00:59:34] No, that was my list. 

Brian [00:59:35] What is the one thing you want people to take from this conversation? 

Jed [00:59:39] That there's a lot more out there than we think and it's a lot better. I, I, I feel like life in the world. It used to be this big, scary, you know, boogeyman place like bars are bad and like, all these things were just bad. Everything was evil except for going to church. And that's not the case. Like some of the most interesting people that you'll ever meet, you're going to meet in some really rough places. And and that's wonderful. Like, I think what I would hope anyone could take away is that we're all we're all sharing the same space. We're all on our individual journeys. Let's just be curious and kind and empathetic people. And there just isn't enough time in your life to be too critical and too hateful like we talked about. We need to get out of the small space and just get into being authentic, you know? And I'm not saying that like, it's easy. Snap your fingers and it happens. But if we work towards it and there's it's a better place, at least for me, and if that helps somebody, then great. And if it helps me, then even better. So I hope that's all that we we take is just be curious and empathetic and and try to just accept, like you said, people are they're trying their best. I very rarely run into somebody where you're like, man, you're really just giving up. Like you're not even trying. So respect it. It's my problems are mine. They're huge to me and it's a drop in the bucket to you. But you're not living my life. You're not walking in my shoes. So you don't feel that pain the way I do. The same way I'm not going to feel whatever the monster that's been you down every day. Yeah. And just have a little space for people. And the world is a much more happy, fun loving place than we give it credit for. If you just take a minute to put your guard down and have a little conversation with people. Awesome. 

MUSIC

Brian [01:01:21] Thank you for joining us for this encore performance with Jed. I've got one simple follow up for you today. Reach out and say hi. Email Brian at Strangers you know, podcast dot com or DM on social media. Let me know which of the two types of episodes we discussed today you find most interesting. Which of my previous guests would you also like to hear from on the next encore and what questions you would like me to ask them? Also, if there are any specific topics or people you know who I should consider for the show, feel free to email me questions as well. Let me know what you do you don't like or just say Hi. 

Thanks for listening to Strangers You Know.