The Power & Peril of Perfection: A Millionaire's Addiction

#137 James Hadlock: Human beings can lose themselves in even the noblest of causes. Understanding ourselves and our motivating factors can raise us to great heights, or crush us. In the case of James Hadlock, it did both.

"The more that I went on that journey, the more that I started to notice that transformation is possible for anyone, any time."

The same motivation that drives us to success can also drive us to complete ruin. Understanding what is driving our feelings and tapping into our inner wisdom is key to which direction we are heading.

James is an experienced entrepreneur, mental health activist, and executive coach. He's the Co-founder and Chief Evangelist of Blunovus, an emotional support service and leadership training company that helps organizations move upstream and proactively address life-work well-being on a cultural level. 

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(CW: Drugs, Addiction, Suicidal Ideation)

 LISTEN to James Hadlock’s and all other episodes and show notes at www.StrangersYouKnowPodcast.com

Transcript

#137 James Hadlock: The Power & Peril of Perfection: A Millionaire's Addiction

 MUSIC

 James H. [00:00:04] And then I looked at my life in that moment. So here I was at 38. No friends, no money. I mean, everything that I had thought made me, me good, bad and ugly was gone. I wasn't using in the moment that I'm destitute. And it was the aha moment up to that point in my life that changed everything. And I woke up. 

 Brian [00:00:28] James Hadlock was raised in a small Idaho town, starting with a simple carpet cleaning business. His drive helped him become a millionaire while he was still in his twenties. A handful of years later, that same drive left him homeless, broke and alone. He'd been hospitalized numerous times for drug overdoses that left him with heart attacks and comas, all while in his early thirties. He has since become a powerful voice for mental health issues and runs a new company that proactively advocates mental health in the workplace. It was a pleasure sitting down with James and hearing his insights. I'm sure you'll learn a lot. Enjoy the conversation. 

 MUSIC

 Brian [00:01:00] So tell me a little bit about yourself. 

 James H. [00:01:03] Oh, my gosh. You've got a. 

 Brian [00:01:04] Fascinating story. 

 James H. [00:01:05] To even start. 

 Brian [00:01:07] I don't know. That's a good question. 

 James H. [00:01:08] I mean, where does anyone start? 

 Brian [00:01:09] Right. Right. And you tell the set story again tomorrow. It's going to start in a different place and cover different, which is one of the things I like about these conversations is and I think some of my listeners appreciate that, but someone think, oh, that person is really negative or whatever. And I'm like, Well, that was on that day six months ago. They're completely different person the next day and now completely different. So I want my listeners to be aware of that, that that's one of the reasons I started doing these follow up encore performances is to say, let me let's talk to that same person again six months later when they're at a different point in their life and just see the difference in the tone of not only the personality, but the topic of conversation is completely different. They got a other story that painful, deep, hurtful story that they've been struggling with for so long. That's out now. We talk about my newest job or the puppy or whatever, you know? 

James H. [00:01:56] Yeah. Wow. Yeah. You know, I tell you about me. Well, gosh, you know, as I as I reflect back, I to give you just a little bit of context, I was raised in a little town in southeast Idaho. And, you know, as I was growing up, I remember, you know, just feeling so different or weird when when I was when I was a kid. And and but I had, you know, from a circumstantial point of view, I probably had a pretty average normal everyday kind of a childhood. I mean, I was the oldest of seven kids and I was active in sports. I was very active in the church that my parents raised me in. I was very active in school and life. And I was a pretty good student. I mean, I was I was kind of just that all-American kid, you know. 

Brian [00:02:45] But you said you felt different. In what way or how. 

James H. [00:02:48] You know, I, I, I felt I felt like I was. Well, you know, I want to hold on now. Okay. That's great. And the reason is, is because I didn't know why. Okay, then. All right. And that's probably part of the discussion I'm going to share today is I just I felt these things, but I couldn't quite place why. Okay. And and, you know, when I and being the oldest of seven and being raised in a very religious home, you know, there was there was, I think very innocently with my parents who who, you know, we had a strenuous relationship for a while. But, you know, today I've got this beautiful relationship. My mom has passed since, but we've got this beautiful relationship now. But, you know, there was innocently a lot of expectation on being the oldest. Sure. You know, I was supposed to be the example. And and so as as far as going along in life and just, gosh, you know, trying to figure it out as a teenager. And then in high school, there was also and I think I put a lot of that on myself, too, of this expectation that I had to be, you know, the perfect kid. Yeah. And I had to be the one to, you know, lead by example and all these things. And so oftentimes I was showing up in a way on how I thought I was supposed to show up and not how maybe I really was. And when I was in, I think, ninth grade, I started to experiment with alcohol a little bit and found that man when I when I did that, I felt really good. Okay. And and didn't feel other pressures in the and the stresses and and and part of those stresses actually manifest themselves with a lot of stomach issues. So I gosh, from a from about seven or eight years old, I started exhibiting a ton of almost phantom pains because they could never really pinpoint what was going on with my stomach. And and so when I drank, man, it was like, no pressure, no stress, like, man, this is kind of cool. And and that went and I think I experimented a little bit with marijuana as well when I was and growing up in a again, in a very small southeast Idaho town where that was super taboo, you know, all of a sudden guilt would come in with that. And so it was almost like I had to hide part of that. And and then some of that came out. And then I remember as a junior in high school where I'm with with kind of the expectation of who I thought I was supposed to be based on my belief systems that had been taught to me. Somehow I kind of woke up to, yeah, maybe this doesn't serve me anymore because I could really see that I was starting to feel very lonely and separated from myself and people and everything else. And anyway, you know, So the rest of my high school career was me playing a lot of baseball, being popular, having a girlfriend, you know, just living that living that high school stuff. And I share that. Just to give you a little bit of context, because what ended up happening is I ended up serving a mission for the church that I was raised in. Okay. 

Brian [00:05:35] So a minute ago, it sounds like you left that for a little bit to try to be your own self, but now you're kind of back into that. Is that accurate or not? 

James H. [00:05:42] Really? I mean, I still thought I believed in it, but the guilt and shame, I mean, but the alcohol kind of gave me like a reprieve from that because I wasn't really in touch with even what was going on with my feelings and how I was supposed to be. A lot of confusion, frankly. Yeah. And. And. So. So I decided to to do, you know, to kind of follow the script, if you will. Yeah. Ended up going on on a mission for my church. And frankly, I had a great time. I mean, it was unbelievable. I got to learn Spanish. I went down to South America for two years and there was something about feeling like I was in the service of others. Yeah, that really felt good to me. Yeah, like, that was something. And I even remember when I and I had a very successful two years, I think I felt that I felt like I really worked hard and really gave myself to the people. And, and, and I remember just crying when I came home from that. Like, it was just like it really was. And, and one of the things that I hadn't tapped into then that I was starting to notice about myself is that I was a pretty sensitive guy and and cared for people. And as I went along, I ended up within a year following the script again, I ended up getting married to just this lovely, lovely woman that my my dad actually introduced me to. And, and, you know, as you get married when you're in your early twenties and you're trying to figure out life and I'm going to college and I'm trying to figure out work stuff, and I found myself really gravitating to, you know, more entrepreneurial kind of thinking. And at the time I was working in a carpet cleaning company because they could schedule around my my college schedule, right? So it was very flexible. And one day the owner comes to me says, hey, you know, I want to franchise this concept out. Would you like to buy this, this original franchise? And I'm like, Wait, that's something I could do. Yeah. And it was my my wife's family actually, who helped cosign for me to get the loan, okay. To borrow the money to buy. And so all of a sudden in our early twenties, my wife at the time and I, we have this business like we're business owners and like 23 years old. 

Brian [00:07:49] Yeah, what a great opportunity. 

James H. [00:07:50] And and and we found we had a knack for it. And so I caught the entrepreneurial bug like, I mean it was and I remember going to college and my professors using me as kind of their the real life example of what the concept they were trying to teach in school. Okay, which I thought was really kind of cool, right? Like, I don't call it that, but yeah, I'm doing that right. And whether it was in accounting or economics or whatever it was, And and then when I realized that I was making about three times what my professors were making, I'm like, you know, what am I going to school for? Oh, I'm going to school so I can get a job. Well, what if I have a job that's already, like, already surpassing what you know, a lot of people will ever get in a lifetime and. Right. And so I ended up you know, I was doing exceptionally well and with my grades and but I ended up I didn't even get an associates degree. I ended up leaving school and went all in. And within a couple of years, I think I had four or five franchises myself of this carpet cleaning company in my mid twenties. And at the same time I was starting to have panic attacks and I mean for lack of because I don't even know what this means, but in my mind I thought I was having a midlife crisis at 25. Yeah, because I thought I'll still never amount to anything. And so I had this kind of overshadowing belief system that I still wasn't doing well enough for some reason, just really kind of a distorted look of of myself. 

Brian [00:09:12] On any particular subject or any particular area or just in general. 

James H. [00:09:17] I would say general. But I was also thinking and I was thinking that even career wise, like I'm this, you know, at the time I was even kind of judging on I'm this lowly carpet cleaning guy. And that's. 

Brian [00:09:29] Crazy is things we tell ourselves. 

James H. [00:09:31] Isn't interesting. Like, like the stories that we create in our own heads and that but the main theme was is that I still wasn't worthy on some level, Like I wasn't, you know, And so I had to. And so I my personality was all about winning you over. So I was so I was super kind, super happy, super energetic. And I thought that was just who I was. And what I came to understand was something much different, which I'll save as I just continue with this story. So I'm having kind of these these moments. I'm almost these breakdowns. Just go on. Oh my gosh, I'm not doing enough. Like, I never felt like I was ever either doing enough or being enough, which felt like I was, you know, there was something broken or flawed about me. And I had no idea where that was coming from, other than it just seemed so real. So, you know, with that as kind of the mindset, I'm like, well, we've got to go bigger and better and better and faster and stronger. And, you know, which ironically, you get a lot of pats on the back for that. Yeah, an attitude in the society that we live in, right? It's all about doing and accomplishing and and rising above and and it's it's interesting because I have a much different perspective of that that we'll get into. But that was what was driving me. 

Brian [00:10:46] Well the bigger is better right You can always get more right There's always like you say, you get a lot of respect and admiration for that, but it's not filling the hole that you need filled. Right. Is just. Pushing harder in a direction because that's the script and that's what you kind of get feedback on. That's what's important for everyone around you. But I don't know if it ever really addresses the core issues and many of. 

James H. [00:11:08] Us well, and when you don't even have a sense of that, it is like even using the word like there's this whole it's it's just like this nebulous unknown of something's off. Yeah, right. Something's off. And you don't even quite know what that is. And so you just kind of again, play the script of how you were raised or what belief systems you have or what you think society accepts or doesn't accept. And so, you know, and not only was I continuing to still exhibit a lot of these stomach issues, but I struggled with a sleep disorder, too. So not sleeping very well, a lot of stomach stuff and still just trying to put this big smile on my face and just go out there and get them, you know, pull up the bootstraps and just just cut it. 

Brian [00:11:51] Out, do more. 

James H. [00:11:52] And just do more. And the doing more was I mean, I just I started chasing them. And so my dad and I, you know, we we tried our hand at creating an entertainment center like a family fun center in this little college town that we that we were at and had some moderate success. And then, you know, because it was always we got into it, you know, let's let's let's get out of this carpet gig that I was doing exceptionally well at. Right. It was just so you know, it reflecting back on that man, I learned so much. But I was a scared kid. I was a scared kid. And I ended up having the opportunity to to sell those companies and take that money. And I ended up investing it with a group in Utah. I had my uncle was down here in in the you know, in Utah County, actually. And I just I looked up to him. He was he wasn't very much older than I was. We were more like brothers and best friends and we were uncle, nephew relationship. So I really looked up to him and and was always mesmerized by, you know, all the cool stuff he talked about. And I, you know, and so I'm like, well, maybe I had to go to the big city or Salt Lake, you know, which was significantly larger than the little the little farm town I grew up in. So so we moved down here and I ended up working with the the, the group that I invested all our money with because, you know, one of the one of the things I told this, you know, the founder of that group was, you know, I'm really interested in kind of learning what you do. And it seems like you've just you're doing all these cool things and raising millions of dollars. And I'd love to come work with you all, invest all my money with you, but you have to let me come work with you. And I don't even care if I start, like, just, you know, running to the dry cleaners for you, which I think I did a couple of times right away for him. And I found out that I could apply the same sound principles of the business that I had created with my my first wife that we that I could apply those to what I was doing here. And what we are doing is we were setting up manufacturing. So I found manufacturing plants in China. And next thing you know, in my mid-twenties I'm traveling back and forth from Hong Kong and, and Taiwan and, and South Korea and going into China. And I mean, I'm like jet setting and I'm like. KENA Yeah, this this this is way cooler than cleaning carpets, right? But it was the same principles, you know, and, and then I found that I was a really great promoter like we would go to I remember going to Chicago to a trade show where we were we were a nobody company, you know, like a little ten by ten. And you've got like the big, you know, kitchen aides and, you know, all these big, huge brands. And I remember tracking down the producer for Good Morning America, and I totally got us on the show. 

Brian [00:14:36] Wow. Good for you. 

James H. [00:14:37] And and and I really didn't even think that much. I'm just like, well, I'm just doing the same thing you did, right? You just this is just how you do it. So, you know, sometimes ignorance is bliss for sure, right? You don't know what you don't know. So nothing really kind of scares you. You're just like, going for it. It's how I served the manufacturing in China. Never done it. Let's just go figure it out. So I. I did have this kind of let's just just one step and, you know, in front of the other, let's just figure this out. So and we we ended up having some some pretty good success. In fact, you know, in my late twenties, we we ended up I was able to sell a lot of my stock and, you know, became a became a millionaire before I was in my thirties. 

Brian [00:15:16] Was the was the feeling inside getting any better? I mean, I can hear you talk about you're excited and it was fun and it felt better. 

James H. [00:15:22] Yeah. And it would I was excited and it would feel better for, you know, like a couple of days. Okay. And then, and then the dread would come back and it's just like, Oh, now, now, boy, now I've got to go out and get, you know, do even bigger. And around the same time that that was going on, that same uncle that was just like as close to, you know, to me as any anyone had been up to that point in my life, ended up tragically dying. And it was devastating. Like I didn't even know what to do with those emotions at all. And so I did. What oftentimes we do when we're in grief is we just hold them in because we're either embarrassed or we don't trust enough or we're scared. Or we're just like, why shouldn't even, you know, we don't even validate what we're experiencing or feeling. And I, I mean, I and so clamming up and not sharing that, I, I, I turned to pharmaceuticals and I went back. So I, you know, I experimented with, with alcohol and a little bit of marijuana when I was in high school. And then, you know, it was a non-issue. And then when this happened, all of a sudden I needed to fix my feelings. And I didn't know that, you know, there were alternatives. But, boy, you know, I remember taking muscle relaxants and that felt really good or painkillers and that that did the trick. Yeah. And so I went back into that world, and as I had often done, I didn't just tiptoe into that world. I went, you know, I nosedived. And within about six months it just wasn't sustainable. Living with a wife that didn't believe in that and me trying to hide it. And so I created a scenario where where I ended up moving out of my house with, you know, I mean, it was within 6 to 9 months, I think, of all this going on. And I was in full blown, you know, using drinking probably every night. And then I she ended up moving back to Idaho. At this point, we had two daughters. And the guilt and shame, you know, just comes over you in such a way that because the only thing I really knew on what I believed could fix my feelings were drugs and alcohol. Yeah, that just escalated. So I was now in this cycle and it was it was pretty severe. So I was now experimenting with all the club drugs like GHB and ecstasy and ketamine. And, you know, I mean, all the, you know, all everything I could get my hands on, frankly. And the other thing I noticed is I had a little money in my pocket. So when I go out to the dance clubs, I'd get all this I get all this attention. And I was you know, I was in my early thirties. I was in good shape, you know, And so now all of a sudden I'm getting this ego boost because all this attention, all these people are like, Oh, who's that? Who's this cool cat on the scene? At least that this is the story I'm telling myself. Okay, I don't know if any of that was true, but I was getting some attention and I felt good because when you have such low self-esteem, which again, I hadn't identified it as that, all of a sudden you're getting, you know, pretty girls wanting to to to to get to know you and all the other guys are thinking you're really cool and you're driving the cool car and have the cool pad. And, you know, I became the epicenter of all the, you know, cool parties and everything going on in man, that just there was there was underneath that there was a loneliness that I was just trying to drown out with even more so. 

Brian [00:18:33] But kind of back to your previous story so you do more, right? It doesn't cover it. So what do you do? You do more, you do more. And instead of dealing with the root issue, when you you're busy at work before you, you did more and now you're in this situation is not dealing with it. So if this doesn't work well, double it. 

James H. [00:18:49] Yeah. 

Brian [00:18:50] It is. That will fix it. Eventually. You'll get to a number where it will work. Yeah. Not that you're headed the wrong direction completely, right? 

James H. [00:18:56] Yeah. It's just like, well, it didn't quite work. So if I just. If I upped the game just a little bit, maybe. Just maybe. 

Brian [00:19:02] Yeah. Whether it's work or alcohol or whatever. Yeah. 

James H. [00:19:05] And I, and I often say this now you can make anything your heroin. 

Brian [00:19:08] Oh, an interesting comment. Yeah. 

James H. [00:19:10] Including the good stuff. Yeah. Meditation yoga. Like if you that the problem is, is oftentimes we check out rather than check in. 

Brian [00:19:19] Oh I love that. Yeah. Because I've seen that with church service too. 

James H. [00:19:22] You can do. 

Brian [00:19:23] It with these volunteers CHEERING so much. 

James H. [00:19:25] Time. Right. You if you lose, we lose ourselves in and we can do that in anything. Anything. And even the most noble of causes the most beautiful of of of original intentions, we can lose ourselves. And one of the things I often do is I because I can still get lost in that in in noble noble causes or. Yeah, you know, I'm big into hot yoga now. I can lose myself into that if I, you know, if I and, and so the other thing I often ask myself, am I in search of is this is this me an attempt to, you know, in in feeling like I'm in lack or is this in support of something I already know that's here. 

Brian [00:20:06] Interesting Is that also do you think that's an addictive personality that yoga more yoga that anything more anything is that or is there something else at play there? 

James H. [00:20:15] I'm not really keen to using the word addiction in that context because I think we all do it. Okay. I think it's something that we do when we have a misunderstanding of how like how our mind works and how we work. We I mean, you think about I mean, we can it is is it a problem to binge watch, you know, the latest whatever series that comes out? Well, maybe not like if you're doing it because it's just really entertaining. But if you're running away from something and you don't want to face something, then then there's probably something there, right? So that's where I'm always kind of in that. Is this in support of or am I searching for something outside of myself to try to make something inside of me feel better? Yeah. And so as I'm going. Down this path. And at this point I've now graduated to Oxy Cotton's, which is the pharmaceutical grade heroin essentially, and cocaine. And those those are now my and I'm and one's an upper one's a downer and I'm now combining those and so there's a lot of physical implications that come with that very specifically. I ended up overdosing over 60 times. And so in and out of hospitals, in comas, having heart attacks and we're talking early thirties and I was I mean, I was and it was just in fact, I remember one time even coming out of the out of the coma and, you know, being in the hospital for however many days, they had me in there. And my first thought when I got out is, where can I get a fix? Wow. I mean, just think of it. It's it's fascinating to me that you can go down that path and have that many kind of near-death experiences and and it doesn't even faze you on how do I get the next, you know, deal. 

Brian [00:21:54] Well, at that point, though, the addiction becomes what life is about. Your personality becomes the addiction. It's all about getting the next the everything is. And so you'll do anything to support that. You'll push away relationships that don't want you to go there. You'll push away any thoughts. That's the only thing, right? Your health and personal health. 

James H. [00:22:11] It's the only. 

Brian [00:22:12] Thing. So back to the first time where you had a medical issue because of it, was that any different or was it immediately, let's get back on this horse or is it like, holy crap, what's going on here? What have I done? 

James H. [00:22:23] I was right back into it. Wow. It really was. It was because there was also a sense of I mean, after you I mean, part of my narrative, after you survive that many overdoses, you're just thinking, yeah, I'm invincible. 

Brian [00:22:35] Well, I always wondered if the first one was any different, if the first one gave you. 

James H. [00:22:38] Oh, even even mean. That's why it took me that that's what it took me a minute to even even think about that, because I. I'll tell you, I know it didn't faze me. Wow. It was just like, you know, on to the next one. But there was also some some some implication of mental illness as well that were coming in. And so I, I obviously wasn't thinking clearly. I was operating from a place of fear. And I was just absolutely I had one thing on my mind. It was how do I fix these feelings that I can't even explain? And so, you know, the the ironic thing about all of this. So, you know, at some point when you're when you're kind of going down this track, all that money magically disappears in one form or another. And a lot of it was me even, I mean, writing $250,000 checks because I had a friend who said this guy's, you know, really going to he's got this development up on South Mountain. He's a really good guy. And no due diligence on my part, no needing, no needing proof of Leanne's and then finding out the guy has got like four leans on the development and, you know, I never see the money again. Yeah. So money was disappearing left and right faster, you know, from partying from just all kinds of just really poor decisions because you're not in a really great. Right. And you're trying to win friends, right? Yeah. Yeah. 

Brian [00:23:51] And you're the popular guy. 

James H. [00:23:52] Yeah, you're popular and you're trying to make yourself feel better. And so you're just doing whatever occurs to you in the moment to do that. From that that point of view. 

Brian [00:24:00] When you look back on that version of you now, what are your feelings towards that, that guy. 

James H. [00:24:06] Compassion. Yeah, love, understanding and like, wow, how, how in the world did you make it through there with with the limited understanding you had about what was going on. Like I'm frankly I'm quite amazed. Yeah. And it's interesting because I've never had anyone ask the question that way. But in this moment, man, I honor I honor that version of me. And I've made such friends with that part of me because he was doing the absolute best he could. Absolutely doing the best he could. Yeah, I love that. 

Brian [00:24:38] I get down on myself, as everybody does, but I look back on past versions of, you know, like that guy such and I'm like, all on in second, like you said, just the compassion He was doing all that he knew how to do and it was wrong and I know that now. But he didn't know that. He didn't see that. He doesn't didn't get to view life as I'm looking at it now. And fortunately, you're in this chair now and you have that opportunity to look back on on him and have compassion for him. And I love that. Thank you for sharing that. 

James H. [00:25:06] Yeah, it's yeah, but thank you for asking the question. Beautiful, beautiful reflection for me. You know, the other thing that was interesting is there was still this part of me that knew how to do business. Yeah. So, so as, as, as you know, I'm seeing this money be depleted and I'm trying and I had tried a few other things. It didn't quite work out. And then an old vendor of mine actually reached out because he, he had provided us with our trade show stuff when I was going to these shows, you know, in Chicago or wherever it was. And he had this trade show company that was kind of a manpower shop. They were doing maybe 2 million a year in sales, and he was on the verge of bankruptcy. So he he had really struggled from a marketing and promoting point of view. And he saw what I did. So he's like, Hey, if you can come in and help me turn this around, I'll give you a third of the company. Wow. And I'm like. I need money. And so I came in and helped them look at things a little bit differently. And I took the the things that they were really good at, which was building trade booths, which was cabinetry. And, you know, these the amazing signage and just super creative in in these different environments that they would create for trade shows. And I'm like, well, this that's the same talent that it takes to go in and design and create like really cool restaurant environments or kiosks for malls. And it had never it had never really, you know, something that had that they had never considered. But see, when you when you build a tradeshow booth, you've got that client's not going to get a new one for like seven years. Right. And so, you know, you've got to get a lot of clients and they just didn't have that. And so I'm like, Well, what can we do to maybe leverage what we do really well? But but market this a little bit differently. And the thing that occurred to me was, well, what if we go to like, restaurants that are going to have like franchises out where they need to build like multiple of these? Or what about kiosks in malls? And so we started doing stuff for some some very cool restaurants and building out their their interiors. But but our biggest deal was with T-Mobile. So it was it was just to give you a concept of timing. It was when they were transitioning from VoiceStream, which was the company at the time, to T-Mobile. And they needed new kiosks for for the malls. Yeah. And we were up against like these multibillion dollar, you know, companies and manufacturers. But again, we had a knack. And I brought in a team and I had an amazing designer and I and I remember having a few insights of, well, gosh, everybody else is going to take PowerPoints up there. And I came up with this idea. I'm like, Why don't we actually build the kiosks and do models of them? Like, you know, like, like you remember in The Brady Bunch when he would have the ARKit, he was the architect and he would like, build out the, you know, the development. And you'd have these you could see everything, right? I'm like, what if we build the actual kiosks that they're kind of talking about and just give them some concepts and let them touch them and fill them because we can't sell them on how big we are. We can't sell them on, you know, all these other big names. But what if we just we we make it an emotional experience. So we built custom cases and we had these kiosks that were about 18 inches high that were to the specs that they were kind of talking about. They were giving us some ideas and we built like three of them and we made them interchangeable. So it was this thing. And I remember going up there and I was so nervous and my partner was like, The bank is calling. They're going to be shutting our doors here, man. We've got to do something. And I'm like, okay, here we go. And we walk in there with these cases and they're like, Do you guys need like a projector for this slide decorating? And we're like, No, no. And they're like, Oh, what do you have here? And I remember opening up that case and pulling these out and just handing them these models, and they all looked at each other and they're said, This isn't fair to anybody. 

Brian [00:28:45] Yeah, this deal is this is right. 

James H. [00:28:47] It was it was open, but it was just one of those moments. And then we we ended up going back. I don't even know the time frame. And by the way, I'm in active addiction this whole time. I can you know, I could turn it on when I was in the meetings, but then I would literally just be a mess, you know, any of the other times. And so I was the talent that they would just drag around to show up. But I remember being in their office when they signed the purchase order for our first deal, which was a $12 million deal. 

Brian [00:29:14] Congratulations. That's all right. Well, here's the front. 

James H. [00:29:16] Right? But here's the funny thing. And I was elated. And all of a sudden, you know, I'm calling the office and they're like, great, the bank, you know, we're we're calling the bank right now. And can you fax that P over right now so we can show the bank not to come today because it was really down to the wire type of deal. But within just a couple of hours, the feeling of dread came over because now it was, how am I ever going to top that one? Yeah. So, you know, the bar was always being set higher than anything I would ever attain. It was always moving. So it was it was a no win game. 

Brian [00:29:46] Yeah, that sounds like very much a a creative headspace where they don't want to succeed because then they immediately know I am going to have to one up and I don't know how I can one up this, this is so good that it scares me to even put it out. 

James H. [00:29:59] Yeah, yeah. It's, it's and again, I'm, I'm tossing a few hints here on kind of the journey on I was the way that I saw the world, the way that, that my thinking created my real I mean, seriously, who takes a $12 million deal like that? So six times more than they've ever done in a year in one one deal. And I think it ended up being, you know, over a $20 million deal annually with these guys. I mean, it was we ended up being, I think the think were in the top 20, top 30 fastest growing companies in Utah the next year. So we were starting to get all these accolades. And yet here I was in full dread of how am I ever going to top that? 

Brian [00:30:39] You've turned that into a club I take yourself with. 

James H. [00:30:41] Yeah, Fascinating. Yeah, fascinating. And just super lonely. Yeah, super scary. 

Brian [00:30:46] And so the answer is more, right? 

James H. [00:30:49] Yeah. Yeah, right. Always more. Yeah, always more. Just want more. What more? 

Brian [00:30:53] Just more. 

James H. [00:30:54] More. 

Brian [00:30:54] More of whatever. 

James H. [00:30:55] Whatever. Yeah, more I. Earn more money. More deals. More busy. Just bring it. Bring it. Bring it. Bring it. And at some point there, I found out I had a breaking point. I ended up in and out of a couple of treatment centers after the fact. And of course, now I've got the money, so I'm paying cash to go to treatment and, you know, and doing it because, you know, there's a kind of a pseudo intervention going on with with people because I became so dysfunctional, I couldn't even operate at. 

Brian [00:31:26] All with family, friends, work. 

James H. [00:31:28] Everybody, almost everybody. It was yeah. And it was a combination. And people were beside themselves because, you know, I had been, you know, I was this just upstanding citizen, you know, trying to do the right thing and just playing the script out. And then all of a sudden, here I am, just can't even function and overdosing all the time and, you know, can't be alone, literally. There were times my mom had to come down and stay with me because I just I wasn't safe to myself or others. 

Brian [00:31:54] Because someone in your position with that much success doesn't have those kinds of problems. Those problems are for people that live on the streets or are completely down and out. Right. And it's like completely irrelevant. Yeah. 

James H. [00:32:07] Absolutely. And and and I think and that's a great point because I think most people have this idea in their minds of, you know, who are the who are the bad people or who are the deadbeats or who are people who have a problem with addiction or. 

Brian [00:32:23] Because they have to explain it in their head to write what's going on over there. 

James H. [00:32:27] Created their own narrative on that, whether it. 

Brian [00:32:29] Has to make sense because it can't happen to them, right? It's not happening to them. Yeah, it is. And you just don't see it, just like they're not seeing it, right? 

James H. [00:32:36] Yeah. And I ended up having a I think three different times I found myself in, in psychotic episodes. That was scary enough that I ended up in the psychiatric hospital three times. And did it ever. 

Brian [00:32:50] Get to the point, looking back on it, where you think this might have been an attempted suicide? 

James H. [00:32:55] Oh, for sure. You know, I didn't up to this point, I hadn't had like, the thought of I want to kill myself. But I had the thought many times that I just didn't want to exist anymore because it was just too painful and I couldn't seem to get out of. And here's here's the other interesting thing. I got to a point. So I didn't quit using cocaine because I wanted to I quit using cocaine because it stopped working. Wow. And all I got when I would use cocaine was paranoia. I mean, I can recall, in fact, I was in North Salt Lake and I'm on a binge and just. Absolutely Iraq. And my drug dealer, you know, stopped answering because they're scared of what's going on. And, you know, I remember, you know, using it and then all of a sudden getting so paranoid, I'd flush it down the toilet. And then I call another drug dealer and say, you know, can you bring some more over? I mean, that's how wild it got. But it stopped working. It literally didn't it didn't it didn't have any effect on me anymore because I just I got to a point physiologically, I guess, or maybe it was on a soul level, I don't know. But it just it got to the point where even even using substances just no longer did the trick to get me out of my feelings. And so then you're stuck. I mean, you want to talk about brutal? Yeah. Imagine. Now you don't have any way out. 

Brian [00:34:14] You're already doing the maximum. You know everything. There is no more. 

James H. [00:34:17] There is no. Yeah, more is gone. 

Brian [00:34:19] There's nothing stronger. There's nothing better. There's nothing. 

James H. [00:34:21] Yeah. And that's when I became suicidal. Because then it's like, man, I have made a mess. And you know what? What else is there to do? And I remember I had a few bucks in my pocket. I at this point, I, by the way, have lost the company. The company is now, you know, they pushed me out. Good for them. I've lost I mean, every penny. The millions of dollars I had was literally poof, gone. I mean, gone. And I am. I'm borrowing a car from a friend. I, I don't. I don't you know, I basically alienated everybody in my life. And I am you know, this was back in 2008 and I am in a little junky hotel in Midvale, Utah, you know, the kind that you can pay cash for and they don't ask questions. I'm like, this is it. I don't I don't have it. There's I can't think of any other way to fix these feelings of unworthiness and unlovable ness. So, you know, maybe maybe this is maybe this is the best. And as I'm sitting in this hotel and I don't even remember, honestly, I was so at this point, I'm still trying to drink, but it's not really feeling that great. But I don't have my mental capacity is really at full strength. Right. And so. 

Brian [00:35:36] And how old were you at the time? 

James H. [00:35:38] I was in my late thirties. I think I was 37, 38 years old. And I already feel like I've lived like 20 lifetimes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was. And at the same time and at the same time I felt like I, you know, had lived it all and so, so much shame and. Guilt. I mean, you know, I'm thinking about my my two daughters and I'm thinking about my parents and I'm thinking about, you know, my business partners and friends and, you know, and it was just unbelievable that I had gotten to this place. But here I was. And I remember I remember turning on the TV and and just for noise. And I'm just like, yeah, I'm going to do this. And I don't even know why it was on because I never watched and I don't even know if it was CNBC or Fox or whatever, but I don't watch any of the new stuff. And Glenn Beck is interviewing Michael Bublé, you know who he is, the singer from Canada. And somehow it caught my attention for a minute because Glenn is talking to to Michael and he's saying, you know, people know you as this superstar, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but they don't know what you went through before you were discovered. Can you share a little bit about your story? And so he proceeds to talk about he knew from a very young age that he wanted to be a singer, and he was like literally singing in like lounges and bars and weddings. He was a wedding singer. No kidding. Wow. And and he did that for years. And nothing was happening. Nothing was happening. Nothing was happening. And his grandpa and his parents would literally just take him to all these little like hole in the wall venues all over the place. And and interestingly enough, he got asked to sing at someone's wedding and like the prime minister was one of the guests at that wedding and was so blown away, asked him to come sing at their kids wedding. And that's how he got discovered. Wow. But but when when he's asking him, like, what? What was it like? Why don't you ever give up like that? Sounds like it was really hard. And he goes, My parents and my grandpa never gave up on me. They never gave up on me. And he goes, I always felt like I had purpose. And he goes, I felt like I was born to sing, which I believe he is. Yeah. And it woke me up just enough. And at 38 years old, they called my mom because she had told me she's like, I know, I know who you are and know who you are. I didn't know who I was. I thought I was a bum, You know, I was a deadbeat. I was just garbage. And I got I got what I deserved. And that's that's kind of what led me to the place I was. And so when I heard Michael Bublé, I mean, isn't it amazing the angels that come into your life just so randomly that it literally woke me up and I called my mom and I'm like, Is there any way I can come home? I'm like, So sorry. And, you know, she jumped in the car. She jumped in the car and and came and got me. And over about a two week period, I got really quiet. You know, they had this little like, you know, I don't know, 12 acre farm and. 

Brian [00:38:23] Still living in the same place. 

James H. [00:38:24] It was it was it was a different place now. 

Brian [00:38:26] Same same bury area. 

James H. [00:38:28] Yeah. They were still in southeast Idaho and that little farmhouse and and you know, and I remember sitting sitting in in my little room there and I was like, how did I get from this like, guy who'd go out of his way to help people and just really nice and all that to this this deadbeat? How did I go from this very successful entrepreneur to what I become today? And it was when I first noticed a deep insight think I had an aha moment and and, and the answer that came to me in that moment was you're the same guy you were using being nice and working really hard to get people's approval because you feel unlovable. So it just you just took on different actions to try to fix something that you thought was missing inside. And I'd never even occurred to me because I thought, well, I need to get back to that guy. No, I didn't. Yeah, because that guy wasn't fully authentic and wasn't fully himself. I mean, I was like. I mean, there was a reason I wasn't sleeping and having all these stomach issues. Like there was something definitely off. And as I started to trust a little bit more in that quiet space of just just kind of being with myself and I. And what was also interesting, I didn't feel like I was the one asking the questions. I felt like the questions were just kind of emerging in me, almost like just showing up. And then I was being aware of them. And then all of a sudden the answers were showing up right along with them. And then as I noticed that this answer of I just really felt like I was unlovable. Abbvie's next question is, well, why do I think that? Yeah. Or am I really like, am I really unlovable? Where's the proof? Sure. Yeah. Like what? Like, like what's. Why do you think that? That's why I why? And. And then I looked at my life in that moment. So here I was, 38. No friends, no money. I mean, everything that I had thought made me, me, good, bad and ugly was gone. I wasn't using in the moment that I'm destitute, so there was no thing to tie to me. And in that moment I noticed. So why are my parents even bringing me into their home? And why are they loving me now if I'm so unlovable? And it was the aha moment up to that point in my life that changed everything. Because in that moment I'm like, They are loving me because I'm not following their religion. Like I don't have a business. Like there was nothing to attach that love to except for this piece of garbage that I thought I was in that moment. And I'm like, Oh my God. And it was it was as if there had always been a light in the room. But it had been. Covered with 30 towels. And and so the room appeared dark and it was as if somebody came and took all those towels off. I used to say that it was like someone flipped the switch, but I've come to know that that light was always on. Yeah. And. And I woke up and I knew in that moment that my relationship and my association to drugs and alcohol would change forever. It would just be different. I didn't have desire to drink, didn't have desire to use. Like all of a sudden I'm just like, man, this this is a different way of seeing the world. 

Brian [00:41:25] So besides maybe drug and alcohol. What were some of the other towels that were covering up that light? 

James H. [00:41:31] Well, the drugs and alcohol weren't actually covering the like the drugs and alcohol were the solution to what I thought was darkness. Okay. Does that make sense? Huh? 

Brian [00:41:41] So what was creating the darkness? What were those things that were. 

James H. [00:41:45] Yeah. 

Brian [00:41:45] That's hiding yourself from you. 

James H. [00:41:47] Well, see, that's the thing is, at the time, I had no idea. I just knew that I just. I just knew inherently that I was lovable. And I love that you asked this question because it's really when the. You know, the story of what I'm about today started because that's what woke me up to going, Holy cow. Like what? Like, here I was having this experience, and now all of a sudden, I, you know, I am now wanting to be in service and I feel more alive and I'm more present with people. And, you know, there was just there was just something that fundamentally had shifted in me that allowed me to be more of who I really am. And I was fascinated because that was not the narrative I got at, you know, at the psychiatric hospital. That was not the narrative that I got at rehab. What I got at rehab was you are going to struggle every day the rest of your life. You better check your shit. Yes. Or you're in trouble. 

Brian [00:42:36] You're always in recovery. 

James H. [00:42:37] You know, You're always at risk. I didn't feel that. I did not feel that that that was not my experience. My experience was I got to now experience freedom from that from that fear. I mean, and I think it's fair to say, like, if you were to ask anybody who has ever struggled with drugs and alcohol, what would they prefer it A total transformation where you don't ever have to think about it again. Yeah. Or you have to worry about it every single day of your life. Yeah, but what are we taught? One day at a time. 

Brian [00:43:08] Yeah. How to fight it. 

James H. [00:43:09] And that wasn't my experience. And I wanted to know why. And, like, so this is where I got super curious, and it's where my passion for learning and understanding and curiosity, I think, just started to serve me really well. And so. So I ended up, like gravitating to Eastern philosophies, to personal development, to anything I could get. I mean, even as far as like, even looking at like quantum mechanics and, and neuroscience, like, I was like I wanted to gobble it all. And I just I got so intrigued with this idea of what is the process of human transformation, because I had just lived I had lived some of that. Yeah. And there was just something that woke up inside of me that that pointed me in that direction. And I, I just, I became a student of, of, of really anything and, and anything associated with this idea of, of transformation. Like what is it and what the heck is what happened. Like what is an insight in the first place. Like how does that how does that even work or play into, you know, making an impact in my life like it did? I mean to see from an in inside level, from insight from within that I was lovable to have the kind of impact that it had and has had over the last 15 years. I thought we were supposed to go and study and work hard and just do, do do to make something like that happen. And yet it was effortless for me. And so it's like, Oh man, maybe, maybe, maybe if I could understand this better, it could be helpful to others. And so I went on I went on a journey and I and I continue to be on that journey. By the way, it's a never ending journey. 

Brian [00:44:52] That is a day to day thing. That is. 

James H. [00:44:54] It is. But it's it's it's so it's just I'm just so fascinated with with the experiences I've had and what other people have had. And I just I want to better understand how the mind works. I want to better understand, you know, what it is about us being alive. And and that has, you know, that's and that passion. Not only has it not gone away, it's actually grown like even more today than ever before. 

Brian [00:45:22] Is that I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I can't think of another way to phrase this question. Is that because you've seen it and participated in happening and in others? And so every time that happens, you're like, okay, we need to do that again. You need to that we need to find someone else. We need to get someone else that they can benefit from this we need to. And so it's just constantly reignited. Every time you see someone get a glimpse into that light bulb that's always been there, but they forgot about or didn't know. And I know that's a totally leading question, so feel free to. 

James H. [00:45:49] Yeah, I'm in. I'm mean, I think I might take that somewhere else. I wouldn't use the words. I don't know. You know the word ignite I. Like. But there is this intrinsic, this intrinsic built in desire that's just there is something about when when you are in the space with yourself or others, that space that I like to call that that quiet space of the divine that reminds us of who we really are. It reminds us that we are not separate. And to me, it's like it's like coming home. It's like being home. It's, you know, just settled and calm. And so it's not about, yeah, I'm fired up to go help another person. It's more of a like, I see the divine and you are ready. And I cannot wait for you to get to experience that for yourself for the sake of you getting to experience it for yourself. Yeah. So there's no ego involved to. Sure. You're in that space. It's just. It's just such a it's just who we are. 

Brian [00:46:44] But it's almost miraculous, right? For someone who's denied that for themselves, that for so long to all of a sudden get that glimpse and to say, no, this is who I am. 

James H. [00:46:53] Yeah. I think we label it miraculous because we because we don't hear it enough to know that it's actually on offer all the time. Yeah. Because here's here's the thing. People. I've shared this story in various ways so many times and many might say, Wow, that's amazing. And I've heard people say that. But I will tell you what my experience of it was. It it didn't feel like really that big of a deal in the moment. It was just like, oh, my gosh. It was just it was almost like it was it was this. It was like I was walking around in a warehouse full of furniture where it was completely pitch black. And then all of a sudden I could see the furniture so I could just navigate. It is more easily. Yeah, but the miraculous part was it wasn't because I was blindfolded or because the lights were out, it was because my eyes were closed. 

Brian [00:47:39] It was the first part of that I was thinking that I once was lost, but now I'm found kind of concept. But then I thought nobody found you. You just had enough light to know where you were and how to navigate from where you are to where you want to go. And you could see that. 

James H. [00:47:53] Yeah. And so the whole metaphor of just opening your eyes, like really being able to see and it was, it was, it was like it's just seeing truth, it seeing truth. And and I think we've all had those experiences where we've gotten really quiet or we've been in we've had those moments where we we settle into no thought and we and we're more into the presence of just being and you can feel it like there's an energy to it when you drop into that space. And when I am witness to that in others, which is what I get to do now with a lot of my time, when I get to witness that in others, where that light goes on, where they see that or where they're opened up to the light, it's just beautiful to get to witness. And so it's it's yeah, it's an interesting it's an interesting thing to noodle on though, even more. And I'm going to find myself probably reflecting on this great question. 

Brian [00:48:43] So I want to go back to the previous question about the blankets as you try to navigate your way through this warehouse filled with furniture by using the wrong tools that made you feel a little bit better, but didn't help them with the navigation. And once you were able to see the light that had always been there, it happened like all at once and you realized that light's always been there. I'm curious to know what those 30 blankets were they got put on there that made you forget that or not Notice that for the first part of your life and maybe we don't have an answer and maybe that's another conversation for another day. 

James H. [00:49:15] Now, I think I do. I think I do. And to just just to go back. The drugs and alcohol were what was helping me try to feel better in the darkness. Yes. Right. So and and it's not throw blankets. It's probably, you know, an infinite number. Okay. That we sometimes take off and then we put on and then we take off. And so we get a little bit of light and then it's a little bit darker. And that that's kind of the that's kind of the experience of life. And so back to kind of my journey of wanting to better understand this human transformation process. Well, one of the things that we completely misunderstand is how the mind works. And so we have, you know, we're going through life and we're mesmerized by our circumstances. And we really believe that if I get X, it's going to make me feel X, good or bad. Right? Right. Make enough money good, not make enough money bad. 

Brian [00:50:05] And we like those simple equations, right? A plus B will equal this. So I just need to get those figured out. 

James H. [00:50:11] Yeah. And, and, and so but, and what we end up doing is we end up going through life and, and you know, my fixing my feelings because that's what I mean if you, if you really like got quiet with this and just considered you know most of the time why do we do what we do is because we want to elicit a certain kind of feeling, right? We want to feel okay. We want to feel accepted. We want to feel connected. We want to feel fill in the blank, right? We're always and we make a lot of our decisions based on how we feel. They made me feel bad. I'm going to get mad at them and I'm going to I'm going to exhibit anger and I'm going to or I feel insecure. I need to control this situation. So one of the things that I came to understand is, is what I like to call the feeling relationship. Like where? Why is it that I. Can be just driving down the freeway and all of a sudden start to feel scared. Is it because there's something, you know, an elephant just ran out on the freeway? Most likely not. Not here in Utah. It's likely that I just had a thought that was a scary thought that then did what it elicited an emotion, an emotion, a feeling. But I don't see it that way. If I don't understand how the mind works, I see it as that feeling is telling me something about whatever I thought. But it's in real life. It's in my circumstances. And so what we tend to do is we try to change our circumstances. Well, I feel scared that we don't have enough money for retirement. And so I'm going to do what I can to do whatever I can to figure that out. Right. And so we're playing this game of life that is 100% where we're we're behaving in a way to try to just make ourselves feel better. Or most of us probably just not feel as bad. And what we don't recognize is that 100% of our feelings come from 100% of our thoughts, not our circumstances. It just looks that way. And so going back to my situation, if all of a sudden I'm having all these feelings and I'm trying to get out of those feelings, what I what I was really trying to do is get out of my head. And you talk to anybody. Talk to anyone who's got, you know, chronic insomnia. What's typically I've got a really busy head. It's hard for me to fall asleep or I wake up in the night every night and I've got a feeling of dread because, you know, whatever we we, we fail to recognize how often we are living in our minds, which is, by the way, 100% of the time, But we're associating it with our surroundings. And so, you know, when I didn't when I made a certain amount of money, but I had a I had a belief system that that wasn't enough. Now, you know why I felt like, oh, no, here we go again when maybe other people would have a belief going, gosh, $12 million. I mean, I wouldn't need to make another dime in my life and I'd be okay. So when you start to get a deeper understanding of how the mind works and you start to notice that thoughts are the power to create, and we're creating all the time from the moment we're born until the moment we die, that those thoughts are transitory and they come and go just like clouds in the sky. Yet we tend to take the ones that look really real to us and we hold on to those and we attach to those and then we run with it and then we go try to fix our world based on a thought that we don't think is a thought. We think it's a circumstance and it's my boss, it's my spouse, it's my kid, it's my car, it's me. And so we live in this made up, make believe world that changes moment to moment to moment. And yet we don't ever consider that it's 100% made up, all of it. And so that was the journey I started to go on. And and the more that I went on that journey, the more that I started to notice that transformation is possible for anyone, any time. And what often gets in the way is we we get caught up in our heads. And so we don't afford ourselves the opportunity to get quite enough to have the insights that come from that deeper wisdom that, you know, when you have a knowingness about something like the one I had when I had this transformational experience 15 years ago, and there's so many implications that we would need probably, you know, the next three weeks to go over that. Brian. But I will tell you to just to to kind of bring it, you know, all together when we get quiet in our heads, in our thinking, when we don't attach to so much thought, and you ask anyone, when are you there, When are you at your highest performance? When are you at your best? When do you when do you notice yourself in the flow the most? It's not when you're thinking a lot, Right? Right. You're in the moment, you're present, you're available for something bigger and you can talk to anyone, whether it's in sports. 

Brian [00:54:36] Yeah. They say when you have to think about the shot, you're going to miss the shot. Yeah, you just need to take the shot. It just needs to stop. 

James H. [00:54:41] Yeah. Yeah. And, and so. So the more that you can live in that place and that's, that's essentially, you know, what I've come to come to understand is that flow is always available to us. It's, we're the ones who kick the hose by a lot of thinking and we're not present and we've got all kinds of stories we're telling ourselves, and then we have stories on top of those stories to justify the stories and and that. So to me, if I want to really simplify this a little bit, yeah, those tells is when we disconnect ourselves from ourselves by a lot of thinking. And that's why I say it could be an infinite number. Yeah. And then we're and then somedays, you know, I mean, have you ever just woken up one day and you just feel amazing and there's just no reason to feel amazing other than you just feel amazing. You know, you're just kind of quiet. You're just a little bit more settled and little, you know, life's just a little quieter. Have you ever had those moments even when, like, when you maybe you've been on a hike and all of a sudden you get on that peak and you you're just blown away by the presence of the majesty of of of this, of this, of the the scenic view. You're not really thinking about it, are you? Right. You're just taking it in there. 

Brian [00:55:47] You're in the. 

James H. [00:55:48] Moment. You're just there. And we've, you know, we've had those experiences in in relationships, even playing sports. Well, there's. Some clues there. And it's the more we can notice how the mind works and the relationship of our thinking to our feelings, it starts to open us up to a new way of living and a new way of seeing the world. 

Brian [00:56:07] So tell me a little bit now about I mean, you said you're fascinated with how the idea with with how the mind works. And do you want to talk more about that? You want to talk about more about how that's changed your life since then? Do you want your personal life or do you want to talk about more about what you're doing with that? Now it's profession or door number four? 

James H. [00:56:28] You know, I could do all of the above, but I know we don't have all that time. 

Brian [00:56:31] So yeah, because you got to get to door number five, right? 

James H. [00:56:33] Yeah. Well, I'll share a couple of things I'll give you. I'm going to give you some just a bridge notes about like, what's really happened since. 

Brian [00:56:44] I do have one question I want to ask at the end. So other than that and. 

James H. [00:56:47] Give you give you give you a couple of the highlights and then I really want to talk about what I'm what I'm like really into now. Awesome. Love it and love it. So 100 days into my recovery, an old client of mine introduced me to her sister on a blind date, and I don't even know why I said yes. Like I had no business like dating or anything. I was fresh into this, but so much had changed in my life and the way I was seeing it. And. And that's when I met my now wife. Her name is Alisha. And when we met, it was like I said, it was a blind date. And we had this just fascinating time together where we just saw each other for who we were. Like, It was so different than any other date I've been on. Like there was no B.S. and about trying to, you know, show my best self. I think I shared with her a lot of what I've shared with you today. She shared with me a lot of this stuff. She, you know, she had gone through and navigated like it was full blown authenticity, vulnerability, like love and inability. And it wasn't like, I don't care what you think. It was more like, this is just this is what my life has been. Yeah. And we connected on such a level that I barely even remembered what she look like. I'm not kidding. And there was no expectation. There was nothing but just like, wow, that was really like super cool. And I felt so comfortable and settled with her. Yeah, you know, I think I'm going to call her again, so. And I'll share this because it was one of our first people to inspire us. Our third day. We got to go to a Wayne Dyer conference. Do you know who he is? 

Brian [00:58:21] Bailey. 

James H. [00:58:22] So. So Wayne Dyer has been known as the father of spirituality and was just he was such a great inspiration for us. And and so, needless to say, my wife and I, we got together. And at the time we had she had three kids and I had two daughters, and we ended up having four more together. So we have we have kids ages 29, all the way down to eight, which is I mean, if you and this is truth, if you would have told me what my life was going to be look like, if I met her, I would have told you emphatically, no way that that would have seemed so overwhelming and scary to think that I was going to be the father of nine children. We oh, by the way, we have four grandkids, too, now. And and when we started to get together and she told me she had a completely different story, I mean, her experience was was almost the complete opposite of mine. And yet she struggled with the same insecurities and unlovable ness that I did. So we both kind of came to the same conclusion that we were both worthless and we had both kind of seen that differently. And so when we came together, you know, we were really interested in we wanted to help other people. And that took us on a journey. And for the first seven years, I wasn't really able to describe anything that I described today. I just thought honestly that maybe I just lucked out or it was grace or something, but I could not articulate or tell you anything about what had occurred, why I had had such a shift. But my wife and I were deep into service and we were supporting other people any way we could. And and, you know, just kind of by being a student of all this stuff, we started to develop our own curriculum and do retreats. And we then were invited to start working in the recovery community. And we did that for a number of years. We struggled financially significantly as we were following this purpose. That was very difficult, very difficult. And I'm talking like, you know, having to live with family members at a time, having to live in a hotel for a time that the manager and owner was one of our friends. We let us stay there or we would have been homeless. So as we were following our dream and having kids and everyone was looking at us like those guys are nuts, like what? But we just had this knowingness inside of us to keep following wherever we were guided. And as we were doing that, about seven, eight, seven, eight years ago, we stumbled upon some of the work that. I now engage in a lot in my coaching and some of it with some neuroscience and poly vagal theory, which I'm not going to go into, other than it's just fascinating work. And so the work we do is steeped in a lot of science. We stumbled on some work of what's called the three principles of mind consciousness and thought that really just blew us away. And it started to help explain what had occurred in some of my transformational shifts and even with my wife. And so we became really, you know, bigger students of this. And we found ourselves now deep in the recovery community being consultants. And that's when we we found ourselves getting the opportunity to speak a lot, consult and coach. And then we had an aha moment back in 2017 where we were looking at because we had been in the in the behavioral health space for a couple of years. We just noticed that everyone's focus in behavioral health was was downstream. It was always about reacting to when the James had locks of the world are in crisis and are ready to take their life. And we just we had to ask ourselves, why isn't anyone being more proactive about this? Like, why why aren't we doing with mental health what people do with their physical health? Like, yes, some people wait until they have a heart attack to start taking care of their body or eating. Right. Right. But what do we do with our mental health? Most of us wait, you know, until something really devastating happens. And then we're like, okay, we better go get a therapist or we need to go into rehab or we need to be checked into the hospital. And so we we started to look at how can we be more proactive. And because we had both had a strong business background and careers, we're like, what if we took the conversation of mental health into the workplace? So back in 2017, we started a company called Blue Navis, where we help companies proactively address mental health on a cultural level. And it was this idea we had that's now actually turned into like this company. And we have, you know, companies like Utah Jazz Backcountry, the outdoor retailer Purple Mattress are a few of the clients that we have which which, you know, pinch me because I couldn't even imagine getting to work with these kind of organizations that care so much about their people that we've developed programs and we have a call center and we we get to help people 24 seven in navigating when they feel alone, when they feel disconnected, and and when they just had a bad day. Yeah. And it's it's been beautiful work. It's been something that the market needed. And so we've just we've continued to have this organization that has grown over the last five years and continues to grow. But my passion is really getting to work with individuals. And in particular, I do a lot of work with CEOs and their teams and it's all around this same idea of of biting the mind, but not for the reasons that you might think. I mean, my my deeper mission is to help people wake up to their own divinity because I'm waking up to mine. And it's been the hardest journey in a lot of ways. But there's so much fulfillment in getting to remember who I am, and I don't think that journey is ever going to end right. It's it's a continual but there's, you know, but when I can when I can be fully present to my kids and just be with them without any expectation and they know they know that they're loved, I wouldn't have been that guy if I didn't go through what I went through. I wouldn't have that awareness today, and I would probably be that go, go, go entrepreneur and and and just not have the presence of mind to be able to really invest the time into my relationships not only with myself but everyone else around me. And I will tell you that that that in in and of itself like just imagine the implications if a CEO could really see that they were part of the divine, how does that impact their decision making in a in an organization? Do you think they're going to be a little bit more human when it comes to their employees if they know that they're part of the divine? Like, how could you not? Right. And so it's it's much deeper than just, you know, But here's also the thing. Performance goes up, relationships get better. But the deeper mission here is what if what if what if you can hold space with people where they can see who they really are? Beautiful mission. It's not one that I was looking for. It's one that I was drawn to just and I think we all at some point get to taste some of that. 

Brian [01:05:24] Yeah, I think it's not one you were programed to look for. It's always been part of who you are, but you are programed to look elsewhere. 

James H. [01:05:31] That's true. 

Brian [01:05:32] And when you uncovered that light, that light was this. Yeah. And that's who you were the whole time. 

James H. [01:05:37] Yeah. Yeah. 

Brian [01:05:38] You just had a lot of programing. Say no success looks like this and your love and worth looks like this. And and slowly we had those blankets of, of our missed programing, our. 

James H. [01:05:49] Labels. 

Brian [01:05:50] Labels. 

James H. [01:05:50] Expectations. 

Brian [01:05:51] Even the even the inability to have the right. Words that our language inhibits what we can actually discuss. We don't have the right words to discuss a lot of this, so it's hard to have a deeper conversation or even think about it because our language in it. 

James H. [01:06:05] That's a good point. You know, it's so funny you say that, because oftentimes I will sit in a session with one of my clients and we say nothing. We just sit in that in that space of presence. That's transformative, right? Like, it's it's changing. And then when when I meet with them again in another week and they're like, I can't wait to tell you everything that changed. And because I know, but there's still a part of me, it's like we didn't talk about anything last week, and yet you have completely changed your relationships and how you show up in the world. Which, which, which is why this is divine work. It's divine work. And and work isn't even the word. It's it's. 

Brian [01:06:41] It's a calling. 

James H. [01:06:42] It's a it's a mission. It's a calling. 

Brian [01:06:44] But but I n the language is. 

James H. [01:06:46] Yeah, we're limited. Right, But it is, it's organized, it's lawful, it's beautiful, it's transcendent. And I suspect I don't know this for sure because I haven't met everyone that's ever lived, but I suspect it's what everybody's after on some level. And depending on when we're ready to be, you know, to wake up on some level, it just it can come in in such beautiful ways and in ways we could never have expected. And it's it's beautiful. It is. 

Brian [01:07:15] It's awesome. And it's so such a wonderful thing that you found that and that you're able to have that impact. 

James H. [01:07:21] I think it found me on some level and I just accepted the I accepted the call and I don't know if that's true either. And again, you know, it's all right. 

Brian [01:07:28] It's yeah, it's all referential whether that's always been there and you just discovered it. 

James H. [01:07:33] Or was or was available to just see it. Yeah. Yeah. And that it's you know even this discussion right now that I'm really in curiosity about even that right there like because I found that this isn't like there is no doing in, in this kind of space. It's more about seeing and being available to see. That is where the change happens. The doing comes after the doing, you know, after you see it, then you just know automatically what to do. Like if I'm, you know, if one of the oven burners is on and I accidentally touch it, I automatically know what to do. Right. But the system is what created that in the first place. That intelligence already created in my body to know, Yeah, your hand is coming off of there really quick. 

Brian [01:08:18] Yeah. But there's also part of us that programs us to get angry and punch the stove. 

James H. [01:08:22] Right? It's like. 

Brian [01:08:24] Well, how useful was that? Yeah. Now you burned your hand and broken your fingers. 

James H. [01:08:29] It's yeah, it's, it's, you know, there is living in the mystery is, is something that I was not comfortable with that I've now really welcomed and it's just it's fun to marinate and just kind of be with and just notice what what emerges from the mystery you know from the unknown. Yeah. 

Brian [01:08:48] You've mentioned divinity and spirituality and you've mentioned at one point that you were being led. And I'm curious as to one, your take on what that divinity is and and what what or who is doing the leading in your life and also how you how you phrase that and how it's received in this in this very particular Utah community. 

James H. [01:09:12] Yeah, that's a great those are all great questions and words get in the way. Yeah oftentimes I choose to word so I'm very, very much available in the moment to use whatever terminology resonates with the person in front of me, in a coaching or in a in a teaching or a training. So when I'm in a corporate setting, I'm using more like inner wisdom or knowingness or gut feeling. So I'm using pretty benign terms. If I have a client, oftentimes I'll even ask the client like when, when we talk, because some clients may want to use the term God, some some clients may not ever want to hear that. Right. And that's where I I'm not interested in letting words get in the way. Right. But there is absolutely something that is bigger than us, and there seems to be some type of intelligence. And there's there's a design to even our bodies. When I cut myself, there is an intelligent design that just knows what to do to heal that cut. Yeah. So whether that's God or universe or or life, energy or a source, like pick, whatever fits for you, it's irrelevant to me. But there is but there is something. 

Brian [01:10:29] So when you think of it. 

James H. [01:10:30] I don't know. I mean, my real answer is I just know there is some some and that's. 

Brian [01:10:35] Why something is the best something can come. 

James H. [01:10:37] Something And I so and I find myself using, you know, typically like if I'm with friends or family or even with myself, I really love the word divine or divinity. I love inner inner, you know, universal intelligence, inner wisdom, as it were. You know, I grew up. Leaving. There was just this old guy with a white beard sitting up on a throne, up in, you know, with trumpets playing. I don't. That's not what I see. Yeah. Yeah, I see something much more formless than that. But there's this power, this energy. And I can't deny that because I have felt it and I've felt the presence of that in conversations, in transformative experiences I've had on so many levels. I mean, if I, if I really boil it down, the word that comes to mind is love. It's love. It's love. Yeah, it's love. I love that. 

Brian [01:11:25] Yeah, that's my core value. So of course, I love that. 

James H. [01:11:29] And so I don't have a problem. You know, I've got clients who are Jewish that are LDS, that are Catholic, that are agnostic, that are atheist, doesn't get in the way because and I feel that out. And so depending on, you know, context of the trainings I do or the events that I facilitate, it's I get a feel for my audience and then I bet, you know, but if I have to go really benign, I go, you know, with like gut feeling or, you know, stuff that people use anyway, which we do, right? So everybody can acknowledge that piece. Yeah, it's pretty easy. Yeah. Yeah. 

Brian [01:12:02] But I mean, you've come, you've push yourself to get really close to understanding that and you don't, you can't get closer to an understanding if you keep it intentionally vague. In order to really understand it, you have to have some basic answers. I think that in your head you carry some type of definition of what that means to you. Does it have a former not have a form or is a basic thing? And to understand? Well, it could be either how do you get culture to an understanding if you're going to be that vague right at the outset? And I'm not saying everyone's going to see it the same way, and nor is it necessarily to define it all of the same way, because I think the underlying concept of this all, all in all inclusive love that permeates our existence, whatever the extent of that existence is, has been further refined and pretty much every personal belief system that's ever been around. So in some case, getting specific makes it harder because you might have missed the point, you may have missed the exit. 

James H. [01:13:04] And nothing I say is going to ever impact anyone else they have to. That comes from within them. And so facilitating it in a way where it gives them the ability to be curious about that, to go inward with it is is where the magic happens anyway. Yes. Yeah. And so and, you know, I had one of my mentors that say that the closer you get to the truth, it's like it's like pointing at fire with ice. You have less to work with, less words. Interest isn't. I know, Ray, less words, less definition. The closer you get to what it is, the less because you're talking about the formless. You're talking about something you can't see, Right? 

Brian [01:13:43] But you also need to get rid of the previously defined images and concepts that have been you've been programed to exist there. 

James H. [01:13:51] And that's where my entire job is, to work with people where they trust enough that they let go of their thinking. 

Brian [01:13:58] Yes. 

James H. [01:13:59] And then they just get where They just get well, if you get a quiet mind, the inward just reveals itself. It can't help itself because that's what we were born into this world with. 

Brian [01:14:09] But that's really hard to do if you has a physical outward definition that you're Yeah, you've got a white knuckle grip on. 

James H. [01:14:16] Yeah. So part of it is, is, is I mean, most of my work is is helping people unlearn and program. Yes right. Yeah. It's it's letting all of that wash away to just be available. And frankly, you know, this is a crude way of saying it, but I kind of got beat down to a point where it was like, ego is like, okay, I give up. 

Brian [01:14:34] Yeah, I've got nothing. 

James H. [01:14:35] Like there's nothing left. Yeah, like it tried everything and tell me everything. Yeah, right in the physical. None of it worked. Yeah. And so at some point, it's like it releases, it releases its grip enough for you to see something real. 

Brian [01:14:50] Yeah. And rely on the inward feelings. Yeah. And say, okay, now you need to look here. Well, you're like, I. 

James H. [01:14:56] Mean, I think most people have had that experience where you just know when either someone's just full of shit or when they're like, you know, they're being really authentic and true. You can sense it, you can feel it. We've all walked into a room when two people have been fighting and you can just you can cut it with a knife. Yeah. So, you know, we we have these experiences, but we deny them all the time because we need proof, right? We need a solid. We need it like this table. But that's where we missed the point because you're not after any of that. You're after something that is deep within you. Yeah. 

Brian [01:15:29] Or we try to interpret that situation based off the circumstance or the situation. That's self. That's right. And that has. That's not that. That's right. Yeah. Fascinating. Okay, My last question for you. What do you want users? What are the two or three things you want listeners to take away from this conversation? 

James H. [01:15:44] Get curious. Okay. QUESTION Yeah. Question. Question Your experience. QUESTION Like start to see if you can notice where. Your experience has really come from a notice that it's not your circumstances. Like we have this amazing mind that can create anything at any given moment. And yet we we think it's real. And so get curious. And then and then, you know, I see this on my clients. I don't know if this is relevant here, but I'm going to say it anyway. Like when you can have a devotion to really knowing who you are, you'll be on the path. It will wake you up to being on that path, and it may come in micro moments and listen. My my journey was my journey, my wife's journey was her journey completely different. And yet, you know, we cross paths and we're getting to do some really fun stuff together that we just love. But it came from a devotion to really wanting to know who we were. And so, you know, just one step after another. And and as you find yourself devoted to wanting to know the truth of who you are, follow those nudges. Trust in that trust. Trust in that inner nudge that that we all have experienced before. And you might be surprised what it reveals to you. 

Brian [01:16:56] Awesome. I really enjoyed our conversation today. 

James H. [01:16:59] Me too. Thank you. 

MUSIC

Brian [01:17:01] I'm grateful to my guests for sharing their stories and insights on this conversation. I'm impressed by the idea that unchecked motivations, no matter how noble, can be a powerful force for improvement, or can completely rail our lives into something unrecognizable from our former selves. James comment about how he went from upstanding citizen trying to do the right thing to a place where he was alone, overdosing and unable to function is a chilling insight into the importance of personal awareness. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this episode on our Community Facebook page. Also, our updated website includes show notes for each episode. Part of the show notes includes links to a few similar conversations from previous episodes. If you like this episode, I invite you to listen to related conversations of Lance, Janie and Hardy. Links in the show notes. Thanks again for listening to Strangers You Know.